How much of an LBS premium are you willing to pay?

[Climb01742]

Originally Posted by Joxster

When you go to the Doctors/Hospital do you ask for a discount? Why should you expect a discount in a retail enviroment? Do you all ask for a 10-20% off you food shop in the supermarket? Now put the shoe on the other foot and how would you feel if you were expected to give a discount off every job you did

Not an apples-to-apples comparison. It's a strawman construct. There is no online option to what doctors do. An apt analogy is buying a book, do you use Amazon or your local book shop? It has the same plus/minus outcomes, where something valuable (a local bookshop) might disappear. But the real question is, how much is it incumbent on the customer to help a local shop survive vs how much is incumbent on the local retailer to react wisely to the online retail revolution.

If a local book shop simply chose to act like Amazon didn't exist and only offered books at full list, would we say that owner was acting like a smart or dumb businessperson?

The answer feels like customers and shops must meet somewhere in the middle. One example: if a customer brings in bike parts bought online is there a slightly higher service rate to install those? Create a two-tier service pricing structure. One for store-bought items and one, slightly higher rate for online parts you bring in? Just a thought. But the answer has to be some middle ground that acknowledges two realities:

1. Customers can get bigger ticket items (frames, group sets, wheels, some high-end handlebars, etc) for far less online.

2. Shops need to make enough to survive.

For a shop to act like #1 doesn't exist just doesn't feel workable long-term...just like a book shop acting like Amazon doesn't exist.

PS: In my business, advertising, clients ask for discounts every single day. Downward pressure on pricing is a constant reality in what I do. And the web is driving much of that. Google and Facebook and Snapchat are my industries version of Amazon. I can't ignore their pricing structures. Refusing to adapt is a ticket to failure.

[Formulasaab]

I use a "head in the sand" approach to shopping at my LBS. Meaning, I don't comparison shop.

I choose to patronize it for a variety of reasons. Chief among them are:

• It is the best LBS in the area (my estimation), and I support that.
• They have become friends and riding buddies, and I highly value friends and riding buddies.
• The owner is a neighbor, so I am putting money directly into my local economy, which I consider important to the health of the neighborhood.
• For a while last year, they gave me a convenient job when I needed one. I wish to give back for that.
• They support local cycling (race sponsorship, volunteering at local cycling charities, trail maintenance, education, advocacy, trail maps, etc.)
• I can use the shop as a pre or mid-ride stop for water/coffee (free) or food/supplies, which can save an otherwise doomed ride.
• There is such a thing as knowledge and experience that hasn't been made available on the internet. I seem to require that occasionally.

There are other reasons, but those are the highlights. Because of those highlights, I don't care to waste my time on internet shopping.

[sitzmark]

Originally Posted by Joxster

When you go to the Doctors/Hospital do you ask for a discount? Why should you expect a discount in a retail enviroment? Do you all ask for a 10-20% off you food shop in the supermarket? Now put the shoe on the other foot and how would you feel if you were expected to give a discount off every job you did

Depending on the private or public insurance matrix of a given medical market, price shopping may actually be a motivating factor in service selection. Also general ignorance of biochemistry and physiology leaves a vast customer base at the "mercy" of the highly educated and regulated provider network.

Why expect a discount? Kind of a "loaded question". Anyone who's been "in business" - any business (sales, general management, business owner) - knows you go to work every day competing for customer dollars. If you can't justify your worth on the customer's terms you simply don't get the business. Yes, even in medicine where provider networks are negotiated. Team members "not on the front line" are somewhat immune to those realities.

Many cycling customers are like uniformed patients - they don't possess the knowledge to make unassisted decisions about which product to purchase or how to service a product once owned. The more informed the customer, the more cost-conscious and value oriented the customer will be ... generally speaking. Enthusiast cyclists with (or without) large discretionary spending resources may choose to value personal relationships over absolute value.

Regarding the original question, I'm willing to pay whatever premium I deem reasonable for what I need at the moment. Usually that relates to services rather than product for me. What I won't do is use an LBS to do my research (knowledge, fit, etc.) and then shop elsewhere for price.

[Gummee]

Originally Posted by adub

The sad reality is retail brick-and-mortar businesses such as independently owned bike shops are a dying breed. Direct to retail is becoming the norm for many products including bikes.

That's great for the end user till they have to fix something.

The customer base for the *typical* (IME) bike shop isn't the enthusiast. The typical customer rides a hybrid or mtn bike for pleasure a few times/month or even few times/year. 99% don't race or have ever thought of entertaining the notion of racing (to include 'training' rather than 'JRA')

AMHIK

M

[pdonk]

Here is my recent experiece in trying to buy bont shoes at a btick and mortar store.

Asked distributor for closest shop. Called shop to check stock. Told the size I wanted was in stock. Got there size I wanted was only in stock in model I did not want. Asked to order the ones I wanted. Told they could not tell me when I'd get them. I told them I'd look at other shoes at store. Sales guy left and didn't come back. I left.

Ordered on line for 50% less and got them in 2 weeks. The moulding was easy enough so not sure what value the store would have added. If they had been in stock 100% would have been ok as I wanted them quickly. But bad service and no delivery date was not worth it.

[Gummee]

Originally Posted by pdonk

Here is my recent experiece in trying to buy bont shoes at a btick and mortar store.

Asked distributor for closest shop. Called shop to check stock. Told the size I wanted was in stock. Got there size I wanted was only in stock in model I did not want. Asked to order the ones I wanted. Told they could not tell me when I'd get them. I told them I'd look at other shoes at store. Sales guy left and didn't come back. I left.

Ordered on line for 50% less and got them in 2 weeks. The moulding was easy enough so not sure what value the store would have added. If they had been in stock 100% would have been ok as I wanted them quickly. But bad service and no delivery date was not worth it.

Bont is a special case. They're an 'issue' kind of company.

I did their online fit thing to order my Vaypors. Came in. I was all excited till I tried em on and realized that they were at least 2 sizes too small.

By the time I'd gotten mine, they were sold out of all of em.

So... The nutshell is 'don't judge an LBS by a Bont purchase' 'cause sometimes we just can't get em.

M

[makoti]

Originally Posted by Gummee

Bont is a special case. They're an 'issue' kind of company....
So... The nutshell is 'don't judge an LBS by a Bont purchase' 'cause sometimes we just can't get em.

M

"I told them I'd look at other shoes at store. Sales guy left and didn't come back. "
Agree, but I'd judge them on that.

[livingminimal]

Originally Posted by beeatnik

D, I respect your style.

Could never play it the way you do because as a former shop rat, I came to the sad conclusion that there are no friends in business

I hear you. I consider myself lucky. Other shops I have had relationships with over time have been very, very different. Like I said, when this one is over for whatever reason, I wouldn't even attempt to do this with another shop. It would be buy online/work myself, or try to get a relationship like you have where it's all business.

[Ti Designs]

Originally Posted by Formulasaab

• There is such a thing as knowledge and experience that hasn't been made available on the internet. I seem to require that occasionally.

That knowledge and experience goes along with seeing the big picture. When I'm selling a customer parts, I'm looking at his bike, so I know it's gonna play well with the rest of the bike. Knowing what I do about the generations of parts and which ones don't work together, I would have a hard time selling parts without seeing the rest of the bike.

I'm now in the same boat when buying photography equipment. I just switched to the Cokin filter system, the on-line stores had info, but only about the part being sold, not how it's gonna work with my lens. I left the camera store thinking it was both time and money well spent.

[Formulasaab]

Originally Posted by RedRider

And when the local charity rides want mechanical support, little leagues need sponsors... I can always click the Ribble banner at the top of this page...

(One of) my points, illustrated cleverly.

[ptourkin]

Originally Posted by Formulasaab

I use a "head in the sand" approach to shopping at my LBS. Meaning, I don't comparison shop.

I choose to patronize it for a variety of reasons. Chief among them are:

• It is the best LBS in the area (my estimation), and I support that.
• They have become friends and riding buddies, and I highly value friends and riding buddies.
• The owner is a neighbor, so I am putting money directly into my local economy, which I consider important to the health of the neighborhood.
• For a while last year, they gave me a convenient job when I needed one. I wish to give back for that.
• They support local cycling (race sponsorship, volunteering at local cycling charities, trail maintenance, education, advocacy, trail maps, etc.)
• I can use the shop as a pre or mid-ride stop for water/coffee (free) or food/supplies, which can save an otherwise doomed ride.
• There is such a thing as knowledge and experience that hasn't been made available on the internet. I seem to require that occasionally.

There are other reasons, but those are the highlights. Because of those highlights, I don't care to waste my time on internet shopping.

Yes. All of these reasons. I support a few. One for huge purchases and a couple in the hood. I consider the owners friends and riding partners and they employ my friends and riding partners. I will gladly keep my "head in the sand" if that is necessary to keep my community strong.

I pick things up on here and occasionally some online rubber, but I want to take care of the people around me who take care of me. It's worth a few bucks.

[weiwentg]

Originally Posted by Joxster

When you go to the Doctors/Hospital do you ask for a discount? Why should you expect a discount in a retail enviroment? Do you all ask for a 10-20% off you food shop in the supermarket? Now put the shoe on the other foot and how would you feel if you were expected to give a discount off every job you did

Someone else already answered this, but I wanted to elaborate on health insurance: your health insurance company already negotiates the discount for you. That is why you don't expect a discount when you go in, because all you owe is the copayment/deductible.

[purpurite]

The only LBS that carries anything even remotely similar to what I want to buy is known for grossly overpricing everything, due to the heavy walleted clientele in this area. Unfortunately, that means $12 tubes, $20 water bottles and $15 used take off wheel skewers.

I would never use them for service, as I prefer to do all of my own. It's a better investment for me to buy a specialty tool once than pay a bike shop to do a simple job (unless it's a job like facing a BB shell or tapping a strange thread), and even then, I'll seek out someone not gouging the price of the work.

If a record shop, bike shop, hobby shop or other specialty store is offering me something as an added value to the simple purchase of an item, I'll always patronize them. However, I have found that since the internet has forced small companies to adapt, the counter-intuitive result of offering LESS to a shopper has happened more often than not.

Straight cash, I'd be willing to spend 10-15% more than online prices for something if I absolutely needed it, but that doesn't happen often. I have actually walked out of shops where the sticker price was so grossly over listed that I went home and ordered multiples of those "small items" to have in reserve, usually paying not much more than one item off the shelf.

Sorry, if I grossly overcharged for my work, I'd be out of business. It works for everyone. I don't expect my clients to pay more just because we're a small shop, or local, or "not a franchise."

[Mr. Pink]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

You are being close-minded about margin. I won't use the other word that describes the above better. A bike shop should know their margin to break even. Generally accepted as 35 points(divide cost by .65) to break even, zero profit, zero net loss. In the example, $43 cost(assuming no shipping $ and not considering the shop cost to order, unpack, price and store-not free, and yes, should not charge $100, but not 'list'), $43 divided by .65 is $66.15. If they sell for less, they lose money. Be insulted all you want but do some research first. The 'playing field' is not flat.

Or, life is not fair? Dude, it's 2016. I mean, I want to support the local shop, but, I'm not going to treat them as a charity case, which is the reasoning some are making here. But, what I think isn't the point. Brick and mortar retail is doomed, slowly, but surely. Sorry.

[nate2351]

Originally Posted by Mr. Pink

Brick and mortar retail is doomed, slowly, but surely. Sorry.

No, its just going to get really expensive.