OT: Cars, fuel economy, and such

[flydhest]

the VW thread has been interesting and informative. We bought ours because (in part) it got good mileage. We internalized some of the externality (we also don't drive much -- 3500 miles a year).

A recent post noted the likely demise of CAFE standards. Without getting into the partisan politics of it, what are people's views? I am an economist by training, profession, and psychological pathology. I find CAFE standards to be far inferior to a carbon tax if the goal is to improve mileage. Not completely ineffective, mind you, but less effective than a carbon tax alone or the two together. You would shift some demand toward cars with better mileage. CAFE standards, by averaging, distort incentives for producers.

What are the views of this august group?

[zap]

If the goal is to reduce the size of vehicles on us roads, higher fuel taxes can be effective if revenue goes to improving highways, bridges, etc. Germany was disciplined in allocating funds and the roads superb. Not sure if that (fiscal discipline) is still the case.

The USA and state governments.......

[martl]

Originally Posted by zap

If the goal is to reduce the size of vehicles on us roads, higher fuel taxes can be effective if revenue goes to improving highways, bridges, etc. Germany was disciplined in allocating funds and the roads superb. Not sure if that (fiscal discipline) is still the case.

The USA and state governments.......

Germany has (sorts of) taxed emissions and fuel usage by upping the tax on fuel. The price of each liter of gas we buy contains 65.45 ct of tax, for diesel it is at 47.04 ct. That ammounts to roughly 2,60$/2$ per gallon of fuel.

As of emissions, there are EU regulations which will put your car into an "emission class" which will affect what annual tax you have to pay for your car. It is also tied to the cubic inch (ccm for us metric fellas).
Each car is taxed at 6,76 Euro up to 25,36 Euro/100cm³, depending on what Euro Class the car is rated. The rating is what was cheated about in the softare of several car maufacturers. (It is noteable that german VW/Audi owners were *not* eligible for any refund - as car manufacturers represent a significant part of the countries industries, and are happy to exaggerate on this even more, they have the ear of our ministry of transport and the chancellor very much. Technically, what they did would qualify for "assisntance in tax fraud" which is usually not a crime taken easily, but there you are...)

There is no way of evading those taxes. We *do* have a system where cars + their maintenance (including fuel) can be given by companies to employees and be claimed against taxes that comany would have to pay, which would qualify as a tax evasion scheme if one looked closely, but (see above).

In Germany, taxes generally can *not* be put aside for a special purpose, so the mineral oil tax and the car tax can't go directly to infrastructure. Of course, a certain balance is maintained.

As of the infrastructure, that has been deteriorating in the last 2 decades, especially in the "old" federal states (non-DDR) due to lack of funds and the unavoidable public services f*up. Autobahns and main roads ("Bundesstrassen") are responsibility of the state, lesser roads are responsibility of the cities or communes, who often are tight.

Road maintenance is tricky - service it every 10 years for a certain ammount of €, or let it rot and do the necessary minimum/emergency repairs every 30 years for a comparably higher price - the policy has been the latter, recently. It shifts cost to the 5rd election period in the future...

Currently, there is a debate about privatising Autobahns, some already are. The public debate whether that is a good thing or not is going on.

[dougdye]

I don't understand why we don't raise the fuel tax. It would encourage drivers to buy more fuel efficient vehicles as well as raise needed funds to improve/maintain our infrastructure.

[shovelhd]

If the fuel taxes went directly into improving infrastructure, I'd be all for raising them. But they don't. They go into the black hole, and I'm dead set against feeding the government machine.

BTW this is a political topic, there's no way around it. Let's see if the forum members have enough discipline to keep it civil.

[93legendti]

An economist who is for a carbon tax???


Uh, ok.

After an 8 yr period of "tax them all", it's time for a different philosophy. Thank G-d. We aren't Europe and that's the point.


"How Would a Carbon Tax Directly Affect the Economy?

By raising the cost of using fossil fuels, a carbon tax would tend to increase the cost of producing goods and services—especially things, such as electricity or transportation, that involve relatively large amounts of CO2 emissions. Those cost increases would provide an incentive for companies to manufacture their products in ways that resulted in fewer CO2 emissions. Higher production costs would also lead to higher prices for emission-intensive goods and services, which would encourage households to use less of them and more of other goods and services.
Without accounting for how the revenues from a carbon tax would be used, such a tax would have a negative effect on the economy. The higher prices it caused would diminish the purchasing power of people’s earnings, effectively reducing their real (inflation-adjusted) wages. Lower real wages would have the net effect of reducing the amount that people worked, thus decreasing the overall supply of labor. Investment would also decline, further reducing the economy’s total output."


"The costs of a carbon tax would not be evenly distributed among U.S. households. For example, the additional costs from higher prices would consume a greater share of income for low-income households than for higher-income households, because low-income households generally spend a larger percentage of their income on emission-intensive goods. Similarly, workers and investors in emission-intensive industries, who would see the largest decrease in demand for their products, would be likely to bear relatively large burdens as the economy adjusted to the tax. Finally, areas of the country where electricity is produced from coal—the most emission-intensive fossil fuel per unit of energy generated—would tend to experience larger increases in electricity prices than other areas would."


India. China. Next?


"A carbon tax’s effect on the economy depends on how lawmakers would use revenues generated by the tax. The tax would help reduce U.S. emissions but would have only a modest effect on the Earth’s climate without a worldwide effort."

https://www.cbo.gov/publication/44223


Good thing the carbon tax argument lost in 2010, 2012, 2014 and 16.

Remember "it's the economy, stupid"?

[Peter P.]

Originally Posted by shovelhd

If the fuel taxes went directly into improving infrastructure, I'd be all for raising them. But they don't. They go into the black hole, and I'm dead set against feeding the government machine.

Precisely.

The goal of CAFE standards is no doubt mult-goal: Less pollution, lower costs, and others I'm sure.

I'm not sophisticated enough to understand how carbon taxes would achieve the same goal; the very term sounds to me like hocus-pocus. The fact that companies can trade these credits among themselves sounds like a shell game to me.

[zap]

edit

Originally Posted by dougdye

I don't understand why we don't raise the fuel tax.

oh, it's happening.

http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf...ding_plan.html

More states will follow.

[ultraman6970]

The problem goes both ways, the buyers and the american manufacturers aswell. Have european friends that love american cars because are just BIG, know american friends that are like 300 pounds wearing a jetta.

We could get better fuel economy if we had the same rules than europe, cars IMO have way too much weight here in america but people wants their stuff in the cars plus add gvmt safety and epa norms and there you have it, crappppy fuel economy.

Thinking seriously into getting a 3 wheels car for 7000 bucks now just to commute. Dont need enything else anyways.

Originally Posted by dougdye

I don't understand why we don't raise the fuel tax. It would encourage drivers to buy more fuel efficient vehicles as well as raise needed funds to improve/maintain our infrastructure.

[fa63]

CAFE standards are there because the "t word" is a non starter in this country.

Which is funny, but regulations like CAFE are essentially the same as a tax, but they are not called one so people are more likely to give it a pass...

[fa63]

Carbon tax would be a short-term economic burden of course, but people adjust. While adjusting, it is possible to provide credits to help those who would be affected the most.

Personally, I am OK with a carbon tax on moral grounds. I want to leave the world the same or better than I found it, and I am willing to pay for that. A Piguvian tax (like carbon tax) is the most certain way to address an externality like emissions. But all of this means nothing if one is to believe that the atmosphere is an infinite sink...

[fuzzalow]

Dunno, haven't given it much thought.

As bad as vehicle emissions might be, the CAFE is probably adequate for the relatively small proportion of its global carbon footprint. And as noted, gasoline tax is already implemented and accepted so that carbon emissions loop is already tax-revenued. IMO rolling back CAFE means nothing other than a gift on corporate taxes for auto makers because their investment into meeting the higher CAFE standard is already a sunk cost.

Carbon tax/treaty is appropriate and much more arduous to implement on an industrial or country scale. The big dirty happens here. Perhaps it better to tax at the point of origin, more akin to a VAT with a higher tax for the how much dirtier the fuel is carbon-wise. Which puts the screws to the coal industry but that IMO is an unavoidable casualty. Frankly, the coal industry shouldn't be allowed to extract product that is taxed the same as other non-renewable energies. If that is the case than coal is given a free ride on the additional carbon dirtiness of the fuel above what other forms of non-renewable energy, if it is taxed at all other than as corporate profit at the end of the chain. I know nothing about the specifics of tax policy on energy extraction so I could be way off base on what I just wrote.

[flydhest]

The CAFE standards are more distortion than tax.

93LegendTi. I don't think I disagree with what you quoted. There is a regressivity to carbon taxes that is not great. The imposition of the tax itself would have some adverse economic harm.

What is missing, or wrong with what is quoted, is the false premise that not imposing the tax means not imposing a cost on society. The question should be, could a carbon tax, warts and all, lead to a net improvement.

I will also stress that I framed this as a comparison to CAFE standards, but the question of good or bad is clearly legit.

And yes, this topic is political, but I think it can be non-partisan. Maybe not, but maybe. There are Dems and Reps who both support and oppose carbon taxes.

[Tickdoc]

Fuel tax increases are long overdue and seem to be the only realistic solution to improving our crumbling infrastructure. I live in what has to be the worst road condition place in the us. What scares me is the incompetence displayed in road maintenance and repair. There are only about three construction firms in our illustrious state that win the bids for these big contracts, and none of them know how to properly build or repair a road, imo.

Watching them work is a comedy of errors, and the finished product is hardly a thing of pride.

My whole life I've always marveled at how nice the roads are in other areas.

[Fatty]

Originally Posted by Tickdoc

Fuel tax increases are long overdue and seem to be the only realistic solution to improving our crumbling infrastructure. I live in what has to be the worst road condition place in the us. What scares me is the incompetence displayed in road maintenance and repair. There are only about three construction firms in our illustrious state that win the bids for these big contracts, and none of them know how to properly build or repair a road, imo.

Watching them work is a comedy of errors, and the finished product is hardly a thing of pride.

My whole life I've always marveled at how nice the roads are in other areas.

If TUL means Tulsa as in Tulsa OK I feel your pain. Once I made the mistake of getting on the Will Rogers turnpike and sitting in grid lock while some crew fixed pot holes.
I live in northern Illinois and I thought we had the worst roads in the nation. I kind of sure we have the highest gasoline taxes and toll roads to add insult to injury.