O.T. "What the Health"

[Louis]

Originally Posted by Clean39T

There is a lot of suffering in the world. One of the easiest choices you can make to reduce that suffering is to stop eating animals.

+1

Many years ago I made the decision to go vegetarian while out on a bike ride.

When riding by horses or cows I've always said "Hello" to them, so after going by some cows that were fairly close to the road and saying "Hello, moo cow!" I thought to myself "I can't say "Hello" to them one day, then be willing to eat them the next." It wasn't right, and furthermore, I didn't want to have any part in supporting the factory farming industry - there's just so much pain and cruelty there, I want to be responsible for as little of that as possible.

I'm hardly perfect, but try to do what I can; and when I pass a livestock transporter truck on the highway I know that that isn't being done for me.

[Clean39T]

Originally Posted by Louis

+1

Many years ago I made the decision to go vegetarian while out on a bike ride.

When riding by horses or cows I've always said "Hello" to them, so after going by some cows that were fairly close to the road and saying "Hello, moo cow!" I thought to myself "I can't say "Hello" to them one day, then be willing to eat them the next." It wasn't right, and furthermore, I didn't want to have any part in supporting the factory farming industry - there's just so much pain and cruelty there, I want to be responsible for as little of that as possible.

I'm hardly perfect, but try to do what I can; and when I pass a livestock transporter truck on the highway I know that that isn't being done for me.

Bingo. And when you learn more about milk and egg production under even the most "humane" conditions, its pretty hard to claim that you need to have either in this modern world when there are other simple substitutes.

[paredown]

I think another argument (aside from the straight up cruelty argument) about meat production is that it is a tremendously wasteful way to produce food.

While I'm not a Malthusian by any stretch, with population growth and climate change, I really hope that people start to see the connection between their over-consumption and those in need in the ROW...not to mention the environmental impacts of (especially) beef production.

The Smithsonian quotes a study here:

..beef requires 28 times more land, six times more fertilizer and 11 times more water compared to those other food sources.[pork, chicken, eggs dairy] That adds up to about five times more greenhouse gas emissions.

To further put these findings into perspective, the authors also ran the same calculations for several staple crops. All told, on a calorie-to-calorie basis, potatoes, wheat and rice require two to six time less resources to produce than pork, chicken, eggs or dairy.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/scienc...ork-180952103/

So if you were just a utilitarian who cared about the environment you might think about ditching beef...

I come down on the side of moderation--I was raised vegetarian/pescatarian (my wife claims we made an exception for fish because I grew up where good salmon was easily found), with moderate dairy and egg consumption. I have gone for stretches eating a near-vegan diet; I certainly can no longer stomach the thought of killing my own fish as I did when I was younger(so I guess I am a bit of a hypocrite).

I probably haven't tried full-on vegan mainly because I like bake goods--and although I have made recipes that are vegan/gluten free etc., I still love some of my faves in moderation..

[FlashUNC]

The mortality rate for living remains at 100%. None of us get outta this thing alive.

Life's too short to not have bacon once in a while.

[paredown]

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

The mortality rate for living remains at 100%. None of us get outta this thing alive.

Life's too short to not have bacon once in a while.

A friend got me coasters with this inscribed. LOL.

[MattTuck]

The ethical side of it just becomes so murky.

I understand that some people don't want to be a part of inhumane treatment of animals. But there are plenty of countries and industries where humans are still treated inhumanely. Diamond mining being one... so swear of diamond jewelry. Easy, you say. How about all the metals that have to be mined for your computers, smart phones and digital gadgets? Dangerous conditions, children laborers, etc. Are you so willing to give that up in the quest for more humane practices around the world?

I like Louis's take on it. Trying to move the needle in the right direction, and doing your part in the best way you know how. I don't see a big difference between someone like that, and someone who eats meat rarely, and consumes local small scale protein that is raised in a sustainable and more humane way. Is it perfect? no, but could be much worse.

Unless you're growing your own heirloom variety food sources, there's a good chance you're part of industrialized farming anyway. Monocultures, lack of genetic diversity in the food supply and use of pesticides are bigger risks than eating protein from small scale farms, in my opinion.

[MattTuck]

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

The mortality rate for living remains at 100%. None of us get outta this thing alive.

Life's too short to not have bacon once in a while.

Ray Kursweil would disagree hang in there long enough, and we may be uploaded to a computer and live on in perpetuity.

[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by MattTuck

Ray Kursweil would disagree hang in there long enough, and we may be uploaded to a computer and live on in perpetuity.

Immortality is something I've got zero interest in. Especially if burgers aren't involved.

[Clean39T]

Originally Posted by paredown

I think another argument (aside from the straight up cruelty argument) about meat production is that it is a tremendously wasteful way to produce food.

While I'm not a Malthusian by any stretch, with population growth and climate change, I really hope that people start to see the connection between their over-consumption and those in need in the ROW...not to mention the environmental impacts of (especially) beef production.

The Smithsonian quotes a study here:

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/scienc...ork-180952103/

So if you were just a utilitarian who cared about the environment you might think about ditching beef...

I come down on the side of moderation--I was raised vegetarian/pescatarian (my wife claims we made an exception for fish because I grew up where good salmon was easily found), with moderate dairy and egg consumption. I have gone for stretches eating a near-vegan diet; I certainly can no longer stomach the thought of killing my own fish as I did when I was younger(so I guess I am a bit of a hypocrite).

I probably haven't tried full-on vegan mainly because I like bake goods--and although I have made recipes that are vegan/gluten free etc., I still love some of my faves in moderation..

On the Utilitarian efficacy of beans over beef:

https://www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/535536/

[Clean39T]

[Clean39T]

Originally Posted by MattTuck

The ethical side of it just becomes so murky.

I understand that some people don't want to be a part of inhumane treatment of animals. But there are plenty of countries and industries where humans are still treated inhumanely. Diamond mining being one... so swear of diamond jewelry. Easy, you say. How about all the metals that have to be mined for your computers, smart phones and digital gadgets? Dangerous conditions, children laborers, etc. Are you so willing to give that up in the quest for more humane practices around the world?

I like Louis's take on it. Trying to move the needle in the right direction, and doing your part in the best way you know how. I don't see a big difference between someone like that, and someone who eats meat rarely, and consumes local small scale protein that is raised in a sustainable and more humane way. Is it perfect? no, but could be much worse.

Unless you're growing your own heirloom variety food sources, there's a good chance you're part of industrialized farming anyway. Monocultures, lack of genetic diversity in the food supply and use of pesticides are bigger risks than eating protein from small scale farms, in my opinion.

It's not really that murky, it's just a matter of doing what you can where you can. I can't right every wrong in the world. But that doesn't mean I can't take action where I'm able to and do what's right when the opportunity is there. Or said differently, just because I occasionally tell a lie (ok, that was one), doesn't mean I should just say **** it and start killing people because well, I already did something wrong, so what's the difference? I participate in the modern economy, and to do so means I'm at times supporting structural inequality, environmental destruction, and human rights abuses - I make some choices to do better there, but I haven't chosen to stop riding a bike, stop using a computer, etc. Those are difficult either/or choices to make. Choosing almond milk isn't.

[chrisroph]

For the past many years, I've consumed relatively modest amounts of animal protein that I have personally harvested, primarily salmon, venison and elk. I believe these are a healthy complement to a well rounded diet. We eat almost no commercially purchased animal proteins.

I haven't been able to give up home made cheese pizza but the cheeses I use are predominately labeled as organic.

My weight, blood pressure, mood and overall health are excellent. I have no problem with people making a choice to go vegan. My youngest daughter has done so but she happily helps me consume my wild personally harvested animal proteins and my pizzas!

[colker]

Originally Posted by Clean39T

You should stop riding bicycles now if you denounce other´s incoherence around meat consumption: rubber tires are a byproduct of the oil industry. Don´t you see the cruelty of wars and killings involved w/ the oil industry?? Stop supporting genocide!

[Louis]

Originally Posted by colker

You should stop riding bicycles now if you denounce other´s incoherence around meat consumption: rubber tires are a byproduct of the oil industry. Don´t you see the cruelty of wars and killings involved w/ the oil industry?? Stop supporting genocide!

I only buy organic tires. They cost a bit more, but IMO are worth it.

[eBAUMANN]

Watched this doc immediately after watching okja...and that pretty much did it for me.

I've always been an animal lover AND meat eater, just kinda waiting to be convinced of the benefits of a plant based diet...which i thought what the health did a pretty great job of presenting. the biological comparison between the human digestive system and other "true carnivores" was pretty eye opening...oddly enough its those sorts of observations that really have the greatest impact on me. also watched a few reaction/critique vids of the doc from various youtube personalities, which provided a nice balance/validation to the ideas presented.

Anyways, I've been eating a mostly-vegan diet since I watched the doc, eggs in baked goods i didnt make myself, but no dairy otherwise. Feeling pretty good (or at least about the same as I always did) energy-wise and not missing meat all that much. Went to a BBQ at a friends place last night and was more than happy to fill my plate with grilled corn/sweet potato/asparagus/pinapple instead of sausages and chicken.

And I've already lost 8lbs in the process.

All-in-all, pretty happy with this move and hoping to keep it up as long as possible.