O.T. "What the Health"

[colker]

I believe the moral dilemmas of eating (animal flesh, milk etc..) in the west is a by product of eliminating hunger. There is no hunger in Europe or the US.
When hungry, you eat whatever you can.
We don´t eat humans anymore because of religion. All the moral dilemmas around animal flesh is the recreation of religion and the higher moral ground religion gives.. If i am going w/ religious morality i will pick something w/ centuries of literature behind it.
There is very little science in veganism and a hard truth to be faced: genetics give you most of the health you enjoy. Some of us may have better health than others out of genetics.
If you care for animals, good for you.. It may be crazy but it´s poetic. Otoh, preaching morality is not good for the spirit.

[MattTuck]

Interesting thread and discussion.

Certainly, I understand the reluctance to be part of large scale meat production... the quality of life for the animals is terrible, and I can see not wanting to support that.

However, I don't see the line as clearly when you consider a rural family that has chickens that lay eggs. High quality of life for the animals combined with a good protein source for the family... seems win/win to me.

For what it's worth, I strongly believe that within 50 years, most of our protein will be synthetically grown in a lab, even beef.... we'll just grow the tissue we want in a bath of nutrients. And I think that is a net positive for animal welfare, resource use and health.

I just don't see the bright line of avoiding all animal products. For me, it is more about avoiding the mass produced animal products.

[benb]

I don't have any issue with vegans/vegetarians but this movie from what I've read is quite flawed and the movie itself is not a good reason to change your diet/lifestyle.

The issues around sustainability and morals, etc.. are the good reasons. Otherwise, it's biology 101, we are not evolutionary vegans, you can say your body isn't meant to eat animal products but your teeth and the the organs inside you disagree. Realistically if you're going to say anything odd about us it's that we're supposed to eat cooked food.

[livingminimal]

Originally Posted by benb

, you can say your body isn't meant to eat animal products but your teeth and the the organs inside you disagree.

I'd love to hear more about this.

[R3awak3n]

Originally Posted by livingminimal

I'd love to hear more about this.

he is gonna say, we have 2 sharp teeth therefore we are meant to eat meat...

[marsh]

Vegans/veggies: what is your main source of protein? My kid absolutely hates most meat. He has tried beef many times and has ended up throwing up.
He can only stomach chicken/fish cooked certain ways. He's really good w/veggies/fruits and otherwise eats well. He doesn't get much processed food. I'm looking for plant-based protein sources. Soy worries me b/c of the estrogen content (or am I wrong?).

[livingminimal]

Originally Posted by marsh

Vegans/veggies: what is your main source of protein? My kid absolutely hates most meat. He has tried beef many times and has ended up throwing up.
He can only stomach chicken/fish cooked certain ways. He's really good w/veggies/fruits and otherwise eats well. He doesn't get much processed food. I'm looking for plant-based protein sources. Soy worries me b/c of the estrogen content (or am I wrong?).

Nuts, beans, tempeh, tofu, tons of natural stuff has enough protein in it to get by.

One good thing that WTH does say is that we need less protein than we are typically told.

Also this is amazing. My kids eat veggie-based smoothies with this daily.
https://myvega.com/products/categories/all

[classtimesailer]

Broccoli, among many, many vegetables has protein. You would have to work pretty hard to fill your plate with vegetables containing enough calories to get you through the day and not have sufficient protein. Humans need animal protein like they need 11 speed electronic shifting and disk brakes.

[R3awak3n]

actually I think they might need disc brakes more. There is protein in a ton of vegetables. The whole, we need meat for protein argument is bogus.

[Hls2k6]

I've been vegan for years. I think there are many ways to eat a healthy diet and this is one that works best for me. If someone else preferred an approach based in moderation, I'm not one to say it could not work.

I also agree with Michael Greger's arguments about the link between the overconsumption of animal products and modern western diseases, particularly heart disease and diabetes. For a resource that's much less sensationalist than WTH, NutritionFacts.org or his book "How Not To Die" are both great.

Finally, I have 11 speeds, electronic shifting, disc brakes and I still get night cramps, especially during hard training weeks when I'm not sufficiently hydrated.

[livingminimal]

Originally Posted by Hls2k6

Finally, I have 11 speeds, electronic shifting, disc brakes and I still get night cramps, especially during hard training weeks when I'm not sufficiently hydrated.

You and I are living that best life.
I have all these modern bike perks but the vegan diet to go with it.

[classtimesailer]

Originally Posted by Hls2k6

I've been vegan for years...

...Finally, I have 11 speeds, electronic shifting, disc brakes and I still get night cramps, especially during hard training weeks when I'm not sufficiently hydrated.

Darn! There goes that theory. But I got cramps last week after a piece of cod. And last month after eating chicken at my brother's house. I'm smoking a pork butt for a party this weekend and I think I will pay dearly for it. I cannot smell it all day and not have some.

[MattTuck]

Originally Posted by Hls2k6

I've been vegan for years. I think there are many ways to eat a healthy diet and this is one that works best for me. If someone else preferred an approach based in moderation, I'm not one to say it could not work.

I also agree with Michael Greger's arguments about the link between the overconsumption of animal products and modern western diseases, particularly heart disease and diabetes. For a resource that's much less sensationalist than WTH, NutritionFacts.org or his book "How Not To Die" are both great.

Finally, I have 11 speeds, electronic shifting, disc brakes and I still get night cramps, especially during hard training weeks when I'm not sufficiently hydrated.

I've been living under the understanding that sugar (not consumption of animal products) is the underlying cause for the increase in modern western diseases like metabolic disorder, cancer and inflammatory/auto-immune conditions.

Is there any research that pulls apart the contributory effects of these two foods?

[livingminimal]

Originally Posted by MattTuck

I've been living under the understanding that sugar (not consumption of animal products) is the underlying cause for the increase in modern western diseases like metabolic disorder, cancer and inflammatory/auto-immune conditions.

Is there any research that pulls apart the contributory effects of these two foods?

He literally just cited a book on the topic that you then quoted.

https://www.amazon.com/How-Not-Die-D.../dp/1250066115

https://drgreger.org/

Edit: Ill add this one as it referenced by PT above and is a must read for plant-based-considerers: https://www.amazon.com/China-Study-C...J01EW7R6S728NZ

[MattTuck]

Originally Posted by livingminimal

He literally just cited a book on the topic that you then quoted.

https://www.amazon.com/How-Not-Die-D.../dp/1250066115

https://drgreger.org/

Yes, I went to the site listed in that post. I have not read the book, yet, but the site has listings for both the ills related to protein and related to sugar (although, both have disclaimers that they're written by volunteers -- not the good doctor himself) My question was specific to the different effects of refined sugar vs. animal protein -- preferably an article in a peer reviewed paper, not another book by a doctor promising a new diet can cure your diseases. Even if that claim is true, and I don't doubt that a healthy diet can have a huge impact on health, I read people in this thread suggesting that animal proteins are responsible for modern illnesses, but the thing that changed the most in the past 50 years is the explosive growth in the amount of sugar that is consumed.