OT: VW cheating emissions on TDI vehicles

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by bcroslin

The dealers had no clue. We know the owner of the dealer we bought our car from and my wife teaches his 10 year old. We've been buying Hondas from him for years and traded in my wife's CRV for the JSW. He's sold Hondas and VW's to a huge number of my wife's coworkers. We're hoping to hear from him soon on what to expect but he's as much in the dark as the rest of us.

I also spoke to my VW mechanic buddy who now works for a Porsche/ Audi dealer and as of 2 days ago the service departments haven't heard a peep. He thinks the fix will amount to nothing more than a ecu reflash and an extended warranty on the NOx trap.

My guy said the same thing. He also offered to buy my JSW on the spot for $13,000.

[Ti Designs]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

I don't think it quite works like that. If two cars get the same miles per gallon, then they produce the same CO2 per mile. But there are other pollutants than CO2, including various hydrocarbon particulates and other nasty stuff. Emissions standards, and the technology to reduce emissions, have improved a lot over the last 25 years. So if an old and new car get the same miles per gallon, the newer car will certainly produce less emissions. The Prius certainly is cleaner than your Honda - not because it is a hybrid, but just because it uses more modern emissions controls.

My CRX was last tested 6 years ago (now they use OBD2) at the time they would print out what was found. The CRX did way better than the Prius - not just in Co2. In simple terms, if two engines are using the same amount of fuel, equally atomized and burned, you're going to see about the same thing coming out the exhaust. Other than the lack of variable valve timing, the 25 year old D15 motor gives away very little. As for emissions standards (a subject I watched for many years) most of it was really stupid. They were all concerned about the emissions before the catalyst reached operating temp, so they moved the cat upstream. The result was a drop in power, so more fuel was used and emissions probably went up. For those of us fabricating turbo manifolds it was a rule to be ignored.

[PoppaWheelie]

I also spoke with a manager at one of my local dealers even willing to take them on trade right now. No VAG incentives yet to get angry customers into other VW models aside from the dinky $2k loyalty cash. He's selling at auction to companies that ship them overseas (China, mainly) so the trade value is super depressed. I can't get enough for mine on trade to get out from my loan balance...so we'll see I guess if there's a sweeter deal later on. This guy thought there might be for recent (last three years) buyers. He's taken a few back and tried to make people happy with the purchase price on a replacement...but he said it was, for the time being, a losing proposition financially. He also said that VW is supposed to announce the fix by Nov 20. No choice for me other than to keep driving it and see what happens. This is my sixth VW but will be the last if they muck it up.

[palincss]

Originally Posted by sjbraun

That is a great question. There really isn't any entity besides the government that can stand up to the power of corporate America. Thanks to the Citizens United decision, corporations have a convenient way to insure that regulatory meddling in their pursuit of profits is minimized. I just don't understand why so many people (including a good number of my friends,) demonize government yet give a free pass to corporate entities like Enron, Dow, VW, Wall Street and the big banks. Its pretty clear that corporations don't have my interests at heart.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." Some of those people ought to read Dickens and Upton Sinclair or watch the video about the Triangle Fire.

[druptight]

Pardon me if this was posted already, tried to scroll back past the 9th when CR released this - but CR did a real world test between "cheat mode" and our normal driving mode (aka: pollution mode).

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/c...-in-cheat-mode

upshot: 4MPG loss in cheat mode, and slower acceleration (more so in the older car).

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by druptight

Pardon me if this was posted already, tried to scroll back past the 9th when CR released this - but CR did a real world test between "cheat mode" and our normal driving mode (aka: pollution mode).

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/c...-in-cheat-mode

upshot: 4MPG loss in cheat mode, and slower acceleration (more so in the older car).

Oh no, I'll get 39 instead of 44mpg.

[thwart]

Originally Posted by druptight

Pardon me if this was posted already, tried to scroll back past the 9th when CR released this - but CR did a real world test between "cheat mode" and our normal driving mode (aka: pollution mode).

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/c...-in-cheat-mode

upshot: 4MPG loss in cheat mode, and slower acceleration (more so in the older car).

What is striking here is that the differences are actually fairly small, even in the older car... I bet you could come close to 50% of that just from car to car variability. Seems it must be something to do with the longevity of engine/exhaust components.

[druptight]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

Oh no, I'll get 39 instead of 44mpg.

I'm certainly not concerned. Utilized the $2,000 loyalty bonus to double down and buy a 2nd VW (gas version) to replace the wife's aging Volvo this past weekend. Paid $19K for a $25K sticker VW. If you're a current owner and aren't too concerned about this whole scandal to keep you from buying another, now's the time to buy!

[shovelhd]

Originally Posted by druptight

Pardon me if this was posted already, tried to scroll back past the 9th when CR released this - but CR did a real world test between "cheat mode" and our normal driving mode (aka: pollution mode).

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/c...-in-cheat-mode

upshot: 4MPG loss in cheat mode, and slower acceleration (more so in the older car).

Yet another flawed test. I guess the fact that it was CR and not Top Gear, I guess that makes it legitimate. CR is not without its own scandals.

4mpg loss overall puts it into gasser mileage range. Not worth the premium price paid for diesel.

[palincss]

Originally Posted by shovelhd

Yet another flawed test. I guess the fact that it was CR and not Top Gear, I guess that makes it legitimate. CR is not without its own scandals.

4mpg loss overall puts it into gasser mileage range. Not worth the premium price paid for diesel.

I too am doubtful that they actually activated the Defeat Device. As for the supposed loss of 4 mpg: for most owners, that would put highway mileage down to the high 30s, and for some the mid-40s. Few of us can achieve that kind of fuel economy in a gas engine car without extreme hypermiling techniques.

As for that mileage being worth the premium paid for diesel, that's no longer an issue for those who own the cars, and the rest won't have the opportunity to face that choice any time soon.

The question for owners is when all is said and done, how badly will we be hurt by this. If the price we have to pay is 4 mpg and a half second longer going from 0-60, that's no big deal.

[ergott]

Originally Posted by palincss

The question for owners is when all is said and done, how badly will we be hurt by this. If the price we have to pay is 4 mpg and a half second longer going from 0-60, that's no big deal.

I'm preparing myself for this result and I can honestly live with it. I just upgraded the sound system in mine for Google Auto/Apple Car and love the interface. My driving experience in the car was never about stomping on the gas, quite the opposite. I cruise at about 60mph in the right lane and enjoy less stress than all the other drivers jockeying for the opportunity to save 10 seconds on their commute.

I wouldn't mind a fuel voucher that made up for the difference in lost economy though!

[shovelhd]

Originally Posted by palincss

The question for owners is when all is said and done, how badly will we be hurt by this. If the price we have to pay is 4 mpg and a half second longer going from 0-60, that's no big deal.

It would be for me. If some dealer jockey is going to tear the inside of my car apart, breaking clips, dropping bolts, introducing squeaks and rattles and who knows what else, I want compensation. I want the option to trade it on a TSI and get full August trade-in value. If I go with the SCR retrofit, assuming it comes down to that, I want a significant bumper to bumper warranty on anything they touched, and I want them to supply AdBlue for as long as I own the car.

I specifically bought a end of production run 2014 so that I could avoid an AdBlue car.

[pbarry]

Originally Posted by shovelhd

Yet another flawed test. I guess the fact that it was CR and not Top Gear, I guess that makes it legitimate. CR is not without its own scandals.

Flawed or not, it's a ballpark idea of what TDI owners might expect when this all shakes out. VW knows exactly what the performance will be without the rigged software.

[palincss]

Originally Posted by shovelhd

It would be for me. If some dealer jockey is going to tear the inside of my car apart, breaking clips, dropping bolts, introducing squeaks and rattles and who knows what else, I want compensation. I want the option to trade it on a TSI and get full August trade-in value. If I go with the SCR retrofit, assuming it comes down to that, I want a significant bumper to bumper warranty on anything they touched, and I want them to supply AdBlue for as long as I own the car.

The Rolling Stones said it best...

Originally Posted by shovelhd

I specifically bought a end of production run 2014 so that I could avoid an AdBlue car.

So did I. And look how well that worked out...

[sjbraun]

Me too. Bought mine in March.