OT: VW cheating emissions on TDI vehicles

[bcroslin]

Originally Posted by 93legendti

Yup, if only the EPA had more money...Don't worry, there are plenty of examples of a broken agency:

"EPA's fake spy gets prison sentence
By ERICA MARTINSON 12/18/13

John C. Beale, the former EPA official who convinced his bosses, friends and even his wife that he was a CIA spy, was sentenced to 32 months in prison Wednesday for defrauding the agency out of nearly $900,000 in unearned pay and bonuses.
Beale, 65, admitted to missing more than 2?ｽ years of work at the EPA over the last decade, during which he claimed to work for the CIA on missions that kept him away from his job as a senior adviser in EPA逞ｴ Office of Air and Radiation. His lies were uncovered because he continued to receive money for 18 months after his retirement, triggering an investigation by the agency逞ｴ inspector general..."

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/1...#ixzz3o8K9latx

'The agency's inspector general, Arthur A. Elkins Jr., said that Beale was able to get away with the fraud for so long because of "an absence of even basic internal controls at the EPA."'
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...theft/2884783/



This guy got a performance bonus on top of his $120k/yr salary:

http://oversight.house.gov/wp-conten...-Statement.pdf
'An Environmental Protection Agency official spent up to six hours a day on the taxpayer dime looking at pornography, according to the EPA Inspector General.
Allan Williams, the deputy assistant inspector general for investigations, told the House Oversight Committee Wednesday that his office had discovered an EPA official who habitually watched porn on a government computer.
徹ne such investigation involves a career EPA employee who allegedly stored pornographic materials on an EPA network server shared by colleagues, Williams testified. 展hen an OIG special agent arrived at this employee痴 work space to conduct an interview, the special agent witnessed the employee actively viewing pornography on his government-issued computer. Subsequently, the employee confessed to spending, on average, between two and six hours per day viewing pornography while at work. The OIG痴 investigation determined that the employee downloaded and viewed more than 7,000 pornographic files during duty hours.?


http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/p...eberg/8804437/

" Office of Administration Director Renee Page sold jewelry and weight loss products from her office during business hours, according to an inspector general's report. The report said she also hired 17 family members and friends as interns, and that she arranged for her daughter, also an EPA employee, to get a cash bonus out of her budget. Page did not return an e-mail seeking comment.

An EPA employee with a work-from-home job did no work for five years and still earned a total of $600,000 and performance bonuses. She retired after an inspector general investigation.

Another unnamed employee kept getting regular paychecks for more than a year after moving to an assisted living facility. The Justice Department is investigating."

A few anecdotes about bad apples doesn't prove anything. A 30-year long cynical plan to starve the EPA to death since the Reagan administration has been well documented.

[saab2000]

Originally Posted by palincss

They don't do emissions testing in Virginia Beach.

Your vehicle must meet Virginia's emissions inspection requirements if it is garaged in one of the localities listed below:

Counties of Arlington, Fairfax, Loudoun, Prince William, or Stafford
Cities of Alexandria, Fairfax, Falls Church, Manassas or Manassas Park

I don't own a diesel.

I was merely reflecting upon a post which makes it appear that he can do with an automobile what VW can't. I find this hard to believe but you never know.

My VW is a 2006 GTI and I can sort of guarantee it would pass emissions controls anywhere it would be required because I keep it maintained to factory specs. Of course, VW factory specs are now suspect so maybe it wouldn't. In any case, it's not part of this controversy.

[Ti Designs]

Originally Posted by bcroslin

Except that the vast majority of us that bought TDI's did so because we were led to believe they were more environmentally friendly and got great gas mileage.

Hey, it does come back to Lance...

Had the majority of you (TDI owners) spent any time cheating emissions standards, you would have guessed that VW was also cheating.

When I started tuning my car I was amazed by how stupid most of the emissions control stuff is. When you turn off the car, there's still fuel mixture left in the intake, so they put a carbon canister in the engine compartment to soak up the wasted fuel. Just one case of "don't want to put that out into the environment, better keep it with me". One could argue that all these little steps add up to a means of being more "green", but then I have to ask why everybody's personal transportation weighs 2 tons?

When they test emissions, they go by percentages. Think of an engine as an air pump, 1/2*engine displacement*RPM is your CFM output (I'm assuming you're car is a four stroke) The amount of fuel you send in and how efficient it's used is the emission they test for. (based on this, and some simple chemistry, there should have been questions about the TDI long ago). If they tested emissions based on actual mass (percentage*volume) the picture would be very different.

Not too long ago I had an argument with a Prius owner about how "green" modern hybrid cars are. I used the example of a Honda CRX HF, last made almost 25 years ago. With it's D15 motor it got an estimated 49MPG. The Prius does one better at 50MPG, but as the battery cycles that number drops into the mid 40s. Prius owners then argue that it's a hybrid so there are less emissions. WRONG!!! The combination of the Honda motor being more efficient and the Prius towing around an extra 1200 pounds makes the 25 year old car the clear winner there.

If progress is making people THINK they are being environmentally friendly, VW was simply making progress.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by Ti Designs

Not too long ago I had an argument with a Prius owner about how "green" modern hybrid cars are. I used the example of a Honda CRX HF, last made almost 25 years ago. With it's D15 motor it got an estimated 49MPG. The Prius does one better at 50MPG, but as the battery cycles that number drops into the mid 40s. Prius owners then argue that it's a hybrid so there are less emissions. WRONG!!! The combination of the Honda motor being more efficient and the Prius towing around an extra 1200 pounds makes the 25 year old car the clear winner there.

I don't think it quite works like that. If two cars get the same miles per gallon, then they produce the same CO2 per mile. But there are other pollutants than CO2, including various hydrocarbon particulates and other nasty stuff. Emissions standards, and the technology to reduce emissions, have improved a lot over the last 25 years. So if an old and new car get the same miles per gallon, the newer car will certainly produce less emissions. The Prius certainly is cleaner than your Honda - not because it is a hybrid, but just because it uses more modern emissions controls.

The Honda got its high fuel mileage by being lightweight. The Prius does it by using more modern technology. Sure, the Prius is heavier - but it also has better crash protection (federal standards have increased here too), more interior room, and other user features.

[Gsinill]

Given your discontent with the EPA, what would be your recommendation to make sure that corporations don't harm society in their pursuit of profit?

Originally Posted by 93legendti

Yup, if only the EPA had more money...Don't worry, there are plenty of examples of a broken agency:

"EPA's fake spy gets prison sentence
By ERICA MARTINSON 12/18/13

John C. Beale, the former EPA official who convinced his bosses, friends and even his wife that he was a CIA spy, was sentenced to 32 months in prison Wednesday for defrauding the agency out of nearly $900,000 in unearned pay and bonuses.
Beale, 65, admitted to missing more than 2?ｽ years of work at the EPA over the last decade, during which he claimed to work for the CIA on missions that kept him away from his job as a senior adviser in EPA逞ｴ Office of Air and Radiation. His lies were uncovered because he continued to receive money for 18 months after his retirement, triggering an investigation by the agency逞ｴ inspector general..."

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/1...#ixzz3o8K9latx

'The agency's inspector general, Arthur A. Elkins Jr., said that Beale was able to get away with the fraud for so long because of "an absence of even basic internal controls at the EPA."'
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...theft/2884783/



This guy got a performance bonus on top of his $120k/yr salary:

http://oversight.house.gov/wp-conten...-Statement.pdf
'An Environmental Protection Agency official spent up to six hours a day on the taxpayer dime looking at pornography, according to the EPA Inspector General.
Allan Williams, the deputy assistant inspector general for investigations, told the House Oversight Committee Wednesday that his office had discovered an EPA official who habitually watched porn on a government computer.
徹ne such investigation involves a career EPA employee who allegedly stored pornographic materials on an EPA network server shared by colleagues, Williams testified. 展hen an OIG special agent arrived at this employee痴 work space to conduct an interview, the special agent witnessed the employee actively viewing pornography on his government-issued computer. Subsequently, the employee confessed to spending, on average, between two and six hours per day viewing pornography while at work. The OIG痴 investigation determined that the employee downloaded and viewed more than 7,000 pornographic files during duty hours.?


http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/p...eberg/8804437/

" Office of Administration Director Renee Page sold jewelry and weight loss products from her office during business hours, according to an inspector general's report. The report said she also hired 17 family members and friends as interns, and that she arranged for her daughter, also an EPA employee, to get a cash bonus out of her budget. Page did not return an e-mail seeking comment.

An EPA employee with a work-from-home job did no work for five years and still earned a total of $600,000 and performance bonuses. She retired after an inspector general investigation.

Another unnamed employee kept getting regular paychecks for more than a year after moving to an assisted living facility. The Justice Department is investigating."

[sjbraun]

Originally Posted by Gsinill

Given your discontent with the EPA, what would be your recommendation to make sure that corporations don't harm society in their pursuit of profit?

That is a great question. There really isn't any entity besides the government that can stand up to the power of corporate America. Thanks to the Citizens United decision, corporations have a convenient way to insure that regulatory meddling in their pursuit of profits is minimized. I just don't understand why so many people (including a good number of my friends,) demonize government yet give a free pass to corporate entities like Enron, Dow, VW, Wall Street and the big banks. Its pretty clear that corporations don't have my interests at heart.

[grawk]

But then the Prius has the waste associated with making the batteries, and disposing of the batteries. The Prius is probably more crash survivable, as long as the batteries don't catch fire.

[shovelhd]

Originally Posted by PoppaWheelie

Has anyone spoken with a dealer about current trade for a new'ish (ie should have some value) tdi wagon? Relative to the market these cars aren't horribly expensive but they're not cheap either and $2k loyalty cash for a gasser that gets 20% less mileage isn't exactly making me run to the sales team. Now if they were giving "sympathy" trade in, that might be another story. I'm curious to have the conversation but would be pissed to hear that the wagon I bought last year for $24k is now worth only $15k on trade. Also, am I right in reading that the loyalty cash is only good on a new Jetta wagon? Giving the mileage hit I'd be more inclined to go back to a hot hatch...GTI or R.

I've spoken to both VWoA and the dealer I bought my car from. VWoA gave me the corporate line. There will be reparations but we don't know what they are yet. Be patient. Ok. My dealer was a bit more pragmatic. They will take it on trade but it will be a lowball because the only way they can sell it is to send it to auction. They cannot afford to have it sit on their lot on their dime while VW pulls their finger out of their ass. He (the owner of the dealership) was very open about how this was not just a screw-up, it was out and out fraud, of both his customers and his dealership. TDI's were 40% of his sales. I asked him if he had watched Michael Horn's testimony this week (I highly recommend it). He watched every minute of it, like I did. He heard the same things I did regarding what VW plans to do, but he has heard nothing from VWoA at this point. His hands are tied until VWoA communicates the plans to their dealers. He will call me as soon as they know.

I may be able to shop around and find a dealer who would be willing to give me August trade-in value, so I will look into that further. In the meantime, I'm off to the self service car wash to give it a good cleaning.

BTW August trade value for my 2014 JSW TDI with roof and nav is $18,800.

[ultraman6970]

What could happen if even regular engine cars are having the same problem?? chan chan chaaaaaaaaannnn....!

[kgreene10]

Originally Posted by shovelhd

I've spoken to both VWoA and the dealer I bought my car from. VWoA gave me the corporate line. There will be reparations but we don't know what they are yet. Be patient. Ok. My dealer was a bit more pragmatic. They will take it on trade but it will be a lowball because the only way they can sell it is to send it to auction. They cannot afford to have it sit on their lot on their dime while VW pulls their finger out of their ass. He (the owner of the dealership) was very open about how this was not just a screw-up, it was out and out fraud, of both his customers and his dealership. TDI's were 40% of his sales. I asked him if he had watched Michael Horn's testimony this week (I highly recommend it). He watched every minute of it, like I did. He heard the same things I did regarding what VW plans to do, but he has heard nothing from VWoA at this point. His hands are tied until VWoA communicates the plans to their dealers. He will call me as soon as they know.

I may be able to shop around and find a dealer who would be willing to give me August trade-in value, so I will look into that further. In the meantime, I'm off to the self service car wash to give it a good cleaning.

BTW August trade value for my 2014 JSW TDI with roof and nav is $18,800.

Thank you for posting this. It helps me keep in mind that dealers may not be part of a conspiracy to defraud. My dealer in Central Austin is so antagonistic to customers and treated me like such crap when I bought my 2015 GSW two months ago that my knee jerk reaction is to think that when they gave me the same response as you got that they are just trying to take max advantage of me as they did during the sales process.

[4Rings6Stars]

Originally Posted by kgreene10

Thank you for posting this. It helps me keep in mind that dealers may not be part of a conspiracy to defraud. My dealer in Central Austin is so antagonistic to customers and treated me like such crap when I bought my 2015 GSW two months ago that my knee jerk reaction is to think that when they gave me the same response as you got that they are just trying to take max advantage of me as they did during the sales process.

Agreed - one of my best friends is a salesman at a VW dealership. They are getting killed... his income this month will be 50% off same month last year if he is lucky.

[bcroslin]

The dealers had no clue. We know the owner of the dealer we bought our car from and my wife teaches his 10 year old. We've been buying Hondas from him for years and traded in my wife's CRV for the JSW. He's sold Hondas and VW's to a huge number of my wife's coworkers. We're hoping to hear from him soon on what to expect but he's as much in the dark as the rest of us.

I also spoke to my VW mechanic buddy who now works for a Porsche/ Audi dealer and as of 2 days ago the service departments haven't heard a peep. He thinks the fix will amount to nothing more than a ecu reflash and an extended warranty on the NOx trap.

[buddybikes]

RE:Prius comment:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...s-battery-dies
also: http://www.toyota-global.com/sustain...pdf/vr_all.pdf

After being removed, the battery pack is sent to specialist recycling firm Kinsbursky Brothers in Anaheim, California -- the same firm responsible for recycling used lithium-ion battery packs from Tesla.

On arrival at the specialized facility, battery packs are broken down into their constituent parts, with nickel being smelted down for stainless steel used in making refrigerator doors, while rare-earth elements, plastic casings and electrolyte are all recycled into appropriate industries.

[grawk]

http://www.weather.com/science/envir...e-toxic-sludge

[bcroslin]

Originally Posted by grawk

http://www.weather.com/science/envir...e-toxic-sludge

There's environmental issues involved in producing nearly every consumable
product on the market. We get it. Please start another thread if you want to discuss it.