Outstanding Packing job

[ColonelJLloyd]

Nothing matters except for what eBay says. Have you contacted them yet? It's as simple as a phone call.

[Bentley]

So as everyone knows its a process with EBay, first attempt to work it out with the seller, he has stopped responding so now I will elevate the issue

Soon will know

[marciero]

I'm guessing the ad did not mentioned something about packing? If so then packing would be viable basis - "item differs from advertised" would apply.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Ken Robb]

Originally Posted by Bentley

I disagree I have to prove damage, would you expect as a former LBS to do a thorough frame inspection for nothing? The assume there is a problem, who is to say it did not happen after receipt.


This is not buyers remorse, just feel like this person did not do the right thing

So, if you liked the looks of the packing you would feel fine riding the bike without carefully checking the frame for damage? Once you ride it and THEN find some damage could you prove that YOU didn't cause it? A poor packing job might be alarming to me but I wouldn't assume that there was or wasn't some damage without inspecting the frame/fork. There have been plenty of instances of faulty goods being shipped in great-looking packages and vice/versa.

[chiasticon]

Originally Posted by Ken Robb

A poor packing job might be alarming to me but I wouldn't assume that there was or wasn't some damage without inspecting the frame/fork.

a fair point. the bike *might* be fine. but he does have every right to be concerned that it was put into a situation where it was more likely to be damaged; especially after he paid decently to have it be packed/shipped properly.

worst thing I ever had shipped to me: a cymbal for a drum kit. seller took two pieces of cardboard and taped them together, flat, with the cymbal in-between. luckily, it wasn't cracked along any of the edges. but it was turned inside-out.

[Bentley]

Originally Posted by Ken Robb

So, if you liked the looks of the packing you would feel fine riding the bike without carefully checking the frame for damage? Once you ride it and THEN find some damage could you prove that YOU didn't cause it? A poor packing job might be alarming to me but I wouldn't assume that there was or wasn't some damage without inspecting the frame/fork. There have been plenty of instances of faulty goods being shipped in great-looking packages and vice/versa.

I think you are off on a tangent. If the packing looked fine and then I was building it up then it would be a "hidden defect" and given that you dont always jump on building something up, its on me. But if you get defective (ineffective) packing then I see it as incumbent to notify the seller and try and resolve it. He could offer to pay for any frame alignment check (about an hour from my house) and about $50 labor, but he has not offered anything. He could also "bond up" using an escrow 3rd party, but no, he just wants me to take my chances. Not right. I have taken items back for much less. I sold a used MocaMaster coffee maker, the carafe was coffee stained (go figure it is used) the guy said his wife had a hissy fit, I took it back and we split the shipping cost. Charge me $75 for packing and shipping, and loosely wrap it in bubble wrap that comes loose, that is not meeting any reasonable expectation of care.

Someone asked if he mentioned packing, no, but generally the most I have read is "will be professionally packed ..." but in most cases nothing. I have gotten parts in bubble wrap envelops, but not a bike flying in the wind with two small pieces of cardboard.

Think about it for a minute, you buy a frame from someone, pay $75 to ship a frame (aluminum) and it does not come in a box, my guess is it is a Win The Future moment.

[Johnny Alien]

I am just saying what the policy from ebay and paypal is. They have an obligation to get it to you in the advertised condition. At this point all that can be proven is that it HAS indeed been shipped to you. You have zero idea if there is any damage and paypal will 100% need that. Preferably with photos to prove it. Telling paypal or ebay that you think the packaging is sketchy is not a reason for them to refund you. Once you open a dispute if it is not found in your favor you can never open another one. I am not saying you have no reason to be concerned I am saying that you need to file a "damaged" or "not as described" claim because they don't care about the packing. If you do it this way they will rule in the seller's favor and you will not be able to open a claim if you find out it's damaged after inspecting it. Opening the package will not hurt your claim it will help it.

[ptourkin]

Absent evidence of damage, you don't have a claim unless a specific claim was made about how it would be packed.

[Bentley]

so maybe you missed it, the fantastic bubble wrap of the rear triangle is flapping in the wind, if it were a box its the equivalent of a hole in the box, a damaged box, all of which is grounds for a claim.

I do not recall that the buyers protection requires one to spend funds to verify that there is no damage, I could measure the dropouts and they like just about every frame could be a little out, that proves little verifying the alignment without spending the money to have it checked would mean building up the bike and then finding a problem with how it handles which would then mean taking it to a frame alignment shop, likely weeks from now, which also opens me up for "how can I be sure you did not damage the frame in the build up". I have actually seen frames fall from a bike stand or have dropped a frame and bent a derailluer hanger, none of which would be that unusual, so what is the recourse then.

My point, its always best when you charge "good money" to perform in a responsible manner, the buyer protection is based on that. If there is a problem, resolve it early, even Ebay says that, dont wait just get it done.

Ray

[GregL]

My $0.02 (and it's worth exactly that...): I have yet to read in this thread that the frame was damaged. If it was damaged, then get a full refund through eBay/PayPal. If it was not damaged, request that the seller reimburse you for half of the shipping cost since the frame was clearly NOT properly, professionally packed. Over the years, I have had frames very poorly packed that arrived in great shape (one was just loose in a box to rattle around) as well as well-packed bikes that were still damaged in shipping (looked like UPS crushed the box...). In all cases, I was able to work with the seller to get to a mutually satisfactory outcome. Good luck!

Greg

[Bentley]

Originally Posted by GregL

My $0.02 (and it's worth exactly that...): I have yet to read in this thread that the frame was damaged. If it was damaged, then get a full refund through eBay/PayPal. If it was not damaged, request that the seller reimburse you for half of the shipping cost since the frame was clearly NOT properly, professionally packed. Over the years, I have had frames very poorly packed that arrived in great shape (one was just loose in a box to rattle around) as well as well-packed bikes that were still damaged in shipping (looked like UPS crushed the box...). In all cases, I was able to work with the seller to get to a mutually satisfactory outcome. Good luck!

Greg

Right, that works for me. It might be fine, but I am pretty sure given the condition of the bubble wrap, (torn, bursted bubbles) that there may be damage. It could be fine, but it will take time and effort and maybe a little money to confirm, that is not what I bought. I thought I bought a used frame that would be packed so that I could safely assume (stress assume) that all was good and I would be good to go. I have gotten the loose frame in the box too, but the box was undamaged so I assumed it was (and it was) good to go. If the frame would have arrived in an undamaged box I would not be wasting my time with this thread. I wish I knew how to post a pic

[batman1425]

I sucks to pay good money for a service and not have a seller follow through, but if it made it to you safely - which still hasn't been assessed - this is a moot point. Bad packing is bad packing whether it is in a box or not. A frame unsecured in a box with a bunch of loose bits rattling around smacking into things, or completely bare with UPS tag wrapped around the top tube it's all bad. To me, being in a box isn't any more piece of mind beyond major alignment concerns or impacts on thin wall metal or carbon tubing. It's presence within a box is no guarantee it will arrive safely.

Case in point: I had a well respected bike shop local to a training camp I was on ship my bike home to me after the camp wrapped up. It arrive home a few days after me, I unboxed and saw they removed both wheels and put the rear wheel next to the main triangle with the cassette facing in, and secured it only to the bike with a single loose zip tie to the top tube. When the box tilted up or down the wheel slid forward and back along the top tube and the cassette teeth slam into the seat tube - which it did during shipping. Nice teeth bite marks in my carbon seat tube. I had a fit. Called the shop and complained. They said take it to a local expert, assess the damage, and we will go from there. Damage ultimately was determined to not be structural, despite how gnarly it looked. Shop comped me for a respray of the area. The point being - boxes or not, damage happens and the seller can't do anything till you know what the problem is. A bad pack job isn't a problem. Damage from shipping because of a bad pack job or damage because the courier mishandled a well packed item is a problem, and that's what you need to assess. You need to assess condition before you will get anywhere with either the seller, the bay, or paypal.

Document its current state (which it sounds like you have) and describe/photograph with scale objects any problem areas that were not disclosed in the original add that could be due to improper packaging. Then get the seller/ebay/paypal involved if there is an issue.

You may think that you were owed more from a $75 shipping charge, and I agree with you. However, don't forget that flat rate shipping is just another way some people make money off sales on ebay. Make a stink if there is something to make a stink about. If it got to you safe packed like that, go buy a lottery ticket move on.

What carrier handled it? I have a hard time believing that either of the big 2 would even take possession of a item packed like you describe.

[batman1425]

Originally Posted by Bentley

Right, that works for me. It might be fine, but I am pretty sure given the condition of the bubble wrap, (torn, bursted bubbles) that there may be damage. It could be fine, but it will take time and effort and maybe a little money to confirm, that is not what I bought. I thought I bought a used frame that would be packed so that I could safely assume (stress assume) that all was good and I would be good to go. I have gotten the loose frame in the box too, but the box was undamaged so I assumed it was (and it was) good to go. If the frame would have arrived in an undamaged box I would not be wasting my time with this thread. I wish I knew how to post a pic

This is the risk of buying over the internet... To be clear - I agree with and understand your frustration that you don't feel like you got what you were promised and paid for. However, fundamentally, that doesn't really matter in the context of the sale unless damage occurred. The seller has an obligation to get it to you safely. Unless you can prove otherwise, box or no box, it's your frame. If it was damaged - then you can go after the seller/ebay/etc. who should refund your money and like Johnny says below - the seller can decide if they want to pursue a claim with the shipper if they feel their packing was sufficient/conformed to the couriers guidelines and they mishandled it. I feel for people that have to go that route - very few packages (even from commercial retailers) conform to the written packing standards at UPS or FedEx. There are lots of loopholes built in to protect them from paying out on claims.

[Johnny Alien]

The hole in the box is a good comparison. If I had a package delivered and the box was mistreated and there was a hole in the box that is NOT grounds for a claim. If I open the box and the item inside got damaged then it's grounds for a claim. At that point the seller can choose to take it up with the shipping company for reimbursement or not but you get a refund because the item arrived damaged. In your case you don't know if it's damaged. You need to verify that. It should not cost you money to see if the frame is in the condition described in the ad. If it's not then you open a claim and will likely get your money back. If you open a dispute and are honest then the most you can say is "it might be damaged, the packaging is bad" and you will lose the dispute You have up to 60 days to open a dispute so you will know if a problem pops up while building it (I would assume).

[-dustin]

i had this long ass response written up about actual packing jobs in the bike world, but then....


wait. i'm confused. the frame showed up and it wasn't actually boxed? like, it was sandwiched between 2 layers of ill-fitting cardboard and bubble wrapped?