Greasing UT BBs?

[thirdgenbird]

Originally Posted by Black Dog

Not true. The clicking is real and can and does happen when the faces are perfectly parallel. I can attest to this. My BB is perfectly square/parallel and the threads were also perfectly cut, yet I had the clicking. The width of the shell was a bit undersized. The newer cups seem to have changed design and eliminated the clicking that rougemechanic talks about. When I put a new set of cups on I did not need the extra wavy washer. An extra wavy washer or shims was the only cure for shells that were a bit under width with the older cups to solve the clicking issue.

Rougemechanic preaches putting the shim in the wrong place for undersized shells. If the shell is truly undersized, the shim should go on the bb face. Using two wavy washers or shims in the cups changes preload.

[Lionel]

Was there a change in UT cups design ? When did this happen ? Not aware of that.

[thirdgenbird]

Originally Posted by Lionel

Was there a change in UT cups design ? When did this happen ? Not aware of that.

Yes.

Not sure on date, but I noticed a tolerance change going from "silver record" cups to the new "green record" cups. (Based on potatos advice) Campagnolo only touts the new cups as lighter and EPS compatible. I'm wondering if the reduced side to side movement improves front shifting with EPS.

[Lionel]

green record ? Even more confused now. I have 2 record UT cups and 2 super record UT cups. The SR are black, the record are dark grey.

[thirdgenbird]

Originally Posted by Lionel

green record ? Even more confused now. I have 2 record UT cups and 2 super record UT cups. The SR are black, the record are dark grey.

Original record cups like mine were silverish, then they were more of a gray (I think), and now they have a greenish tint and say EPS on them. Going from silver to green resulted in less lateral play for me.

SR cups have always been black but I think there are two generations. Original and EPS compatible. Unsure if there is any difference as I don't have a need for cups without seals.

[cfox]

Originally Posted by Black Dog

Not true. The clicking is real and can and does happen when the faces are perfectly parallel. I can attest to this. My BB is perfectly square/parallel and the threads were also perfectly cut, yet I had the clicking. The width of the shell was a bit undersized. The newer cups seem to have changed design and eliminated the clicking that rougemechanic talks about. When I put a new set of cups on I did not need the extra wavy washer. An extra wavy washer or shims was the only cure for shells that were a bit under width with the older cups to solve the clicking issue.

Yes, I agree, and that is what I wrote; if your cups are undersized, that is one of the ways you can get noise. Roquemechanic seems to think the system is flawed even for BBs that are within spec. You will get a tiny bit of spring loaded play even with a properly sized BB, but it won't click. He advocates shimming away all of the play in every BB, which will only lead to your bearings dying a quick death.

[HillDancer]

Originally Posted by thirdgenbird

Rougemechanic preaches putting the shim in the wrong place for undersized shells. If the shell is truly undersized, the shim should go on the bb face. Using two wavy washers or shims in the cups changes preload.

The Rogue Mechanic Campagnolo Ultra-Torque Shims are placed between the non-drive outboard cup and the bottom bracket shell. Please explain how this is the "wrong place" to compensate for differences in shell width.

For those that don't have excessive lateral movement of a Campy outboard bearing crank, good of you. I've installed and ride UT & PT cranks, both have enough side movement to click & clack when climbing out of the saddle. The movement and noise can be replicated with mere thumb pressure on the non-drive crank end. The shells are faced and parallel; the shell on the UT installation is at the low end of Campy spec, the PT installation is at the high end of spec.

Rogue Mechanic's Campagnolo Ultra-Torque Shim Kits have a variety of shim depths not available from other retail sources. Selecting an appropriate shim stack is critical for precision fitment without excessive pre-load.

Originally Posted by cfox

...Roquemechanic...advocates shimming away all of the play in every BB, which will only lead to your bearings dying a quick death.

Where's the proof of this negative assertion? If this were the case then all other outboard bearing systems would be short lived also.

Campagnolo is a brand, not a religion; Rogue Mechanic is not a heretic. My own faith in Campagnolism has diminished somewhat after discovering "made in China" on my replacement steel UT bearing box. I now think the UT bearing knocking back & forth between the retaining clip and cup is less likely the cause of the original bearing's early demise, than poor bearing manufacturer materials and construction.

[thirdgenbird]

Sorry, I was referring to this nonsense on rougemechanics sites:



Using a bb shim to get the shell in spec is fine. Shimming to remove the wavy washer is nonsense. Campagnolo isn't the only manufacture to use this type of axle and they are not the only who use a wavy washer. Additionally, he seems to have propagated almost all the threads on UT noise.

I'm not 100% pleased with UT do to shorter bearing life but mine have never made a clicking noise. Disassembly of the bearing also proved it was a contamination failure, nothing to do with movement or alignment. My disappointment with UT is seal related. They just don't last as long as the square taper bearings.

My ultra-torque bearings say made in Italy. When did you but yours?

[Black Dog]

Originally Posted by cfox

Yes, I agree, and that is what I wrote; if your cups are undersized, that is one of the ways you can get noise. Roquemechanic seems to think the system is flawed even for BBs that are within spec. You will get a tiny bit of spring loaded play even with a properly sized BB, but it won't click. He advocates shimming away all of the play in every BB, which will only lead to your bearings dying a quick death.

I agree with you. There should be some play so as to not side load the bearings to death. Campy solved the problems that he was harping on with the redesign of the cups.

[Dave]

Perhaps there has been a redesign to the cups, but the current instructions that list the BB width tolerance have not changed. All the "redesign" could amount to is a small increase in the width between the inside faces of the cups, or a new wave washer that is either stronger, and/or has more available squash range.

http://www.campagnolo.com/repository...UK_06_2012.pdf

If a BB shell is under the width limit, it makes no difference what side a shim is placed. Either side will increase the overall width and increase the wave washer tension.

The idea of using two wave washers or a shim next to the wave washer is stupid. The design is such that a BB at the maximum width leaves little room for any shimming. If the BB is undersize, shim the cups.

Using a stack of shims in place of the wave washer is the worst idea. You have to take the thing apart multiple times and then live with bearings that are either too tight or too loose. Even .002 inch of axial play can feel sloppy.

[jds108]

I slightly regret bringing up the shims. I bought a set of them and got the correct amount figured out to place between the bb shell and cups with a bit of trial and error. So now no wavy washer, no side to side movement, and not so many shims that anything is binding. The shims in the kit go down to .1mm if my memory is correct. No little creak/pop either.

Maybe I got lucky, but it worked for me.

In my opinion, the whole wavy washer concept in a bb is questionable. Zipp did this 10+ years ago with their rear cassette hubs and it didn't work in that application.

Some folks may experience creaking bbs, some may not. Of those that do, there will of course be a variety of root causes. I think that the axle and bearing shifting relative to the cups is one possible cause. One possible solution to that is to eliminate that shift by removing any potential for side-to-side movement by moving the cups outward ever so slightly. Hopefully we would all check bb shell alignment/facing before going with aftermarket shims....

But I don't quite get the negativity towards the shims placed between shell and cups.

I guess I just hope that Campy's redesign tightens things up a bit. Their Power Torque assemblies certainly seem to have things fit together more "tightly". (I have only installed one PT bb/crank and the cups/bearings/axle are all so snug in PT that it takes a LOT of effort to physically push the axle sideways in the bb/shell whereas my older UT systems are pretty easy to push the axle sideways with hand force).

[ultraman6970]

What the rogue mechanic says is not totally non sense IMO, for some idiotic reason I have noticed that the wavy washer is not strong enough and gets worn quite quick and you develop a clank or a darn creak in the crankset.

It doesnt happen with all the cranksets neither with all the frames, a friend had a creak using an athena UT crankset, took a look, we put a second wavy washer and the tiny play went away and the creak gone.

As for the record UT cups, they are in the 3rd incarnation (sr no idea since are black)... have a set of each color and you can tell the tolerances are more tight in the greenish ones. Is not that much, maybe a mm total between the 2 cups, so if you look at it the non sense the rogue mechanic is talking is not that inaccurate, but again it depends a lot of the bike because the creaks and clanks some experience do not happen with all the bikes.

Not defending the rogue mechanic just in case ok?

[saab2000]

Mine are swimming in grease. No creaks.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by Lionel

Was there a change in UT cups design ? When did this happen ? Not aware of that.

First gen. was silver, second gen was a gold color, third, current gen is greenish.

2007 until about 2009..2009 until about 2010..greenish in 2010..to today.

Each gen had tighter tolerances.

No need for anything but what comes in the cups..all else means the BB shell 'ain't right'.

[HillDancer]

Originally Posted by thirdgenbird

Sorry, I was referring to this nonsense on rougemechanics sites:...When did you but yours?

The image you displayed is without context, how about showing a link to the original article?

Here are the official instructions, without the propaganda "nonsense".
http://roguemechanic.typepad.com/rog...ra-torque.html

Image of Campagnolo UT steel bearing box shown below.