Question on gearing and group pacelining

[Ti Designs]

Originally Posted by John H.

I have been doing a road group ride on the worst bike and worst gearing possible.
Rolling terrain. I am on 34/50 with an 11-36 and WTB Riddler 700x37mm mixed terrain tires at about 45 psi.
I just realize that I have to spin really high rpms sometimes, and 85 rpms sometimes.
Also- the bike reaches terminal velocity more quickly than other bikes- it simply will not go faster.

We had a 65 degree Saturday in February and everybody else showed up on their go-fast bikes with deep carbon wheels. I showed up on my cross bike with studded snow tires. I call them fast-proof. I've been doing the winter training plan for long enough to know that a 65 degree Saturday in February is still a Saturday in February (base mileage, base mileage, base mileage), but it was nice to see that I wasn't the one struggling on the hills.

[FlashUNC]

As others have mentioned, it ain't the gearing.

And there's only so much you can do when the rest of the pack rides like squirrels on crack. Don't lead people through crap in the road, keep it smooth and keep it consistent. It isn't rocket science.

[Cloozoe]

Sounds like maybe a different group is in order?

[11.4]

I've been on lots of early season team rides where we basically do this for new team members. And I have to say that there isn't a spring on the track when we don't do regulated-speed pacelines for extended warmup and use it to teach skills. Even riders who've been on trainers all winter or who just don't do that well even with years of practice are beneficiaries of the drills.

So, a few points.

First, nobody needs to be a jerk. If they are, talk back. Early season, everybody has some rough days.

Second, there are days when pacelines are just plain awful. The same group can look like a world championship time trial team on one day and the next week look like complete rubes. So give any paceline a chance.

Third, it only takes one or two riders to really discombobulate a whole paceline. If one rider is surging or slipping a bit, there's a chain reaction. Riders pop out of the line so they don't run into you, or they have to accelerate to catch your wheel again, and everybody is getting pissed.

Fourth, without an accurate speedometer/cyclometer on your bike, it's hard to play the game. Set a speed and distance, such as 3 miles at 18 mph, 3 miles at 20 mph, 3 miles at 23 mph, 2 miles at 25 mph, 2 miles at 28 mph, 2 miles at 30 mph. What usually happens is that the rider in front screws up and either surges off the front or suddenly is facing wind and slows down.

Fifth, when doing paceline drills, don't do speeds faster than everyone can handle easily. You can do escalating steps like described above, and riders will figure out when they start to get ragged and can work on it, and if a speed is simply too fast a rider can drop off while the others finish the run and then regroup.

Sixth, anybody can be tense when riding in close formation. In road paceline drills, you want to be passing back down the side with your knuckles within a few inches of the next rider. That means everyone needs to stay in line and not pop out and run into a rider coming back. You also don't want to hit brakes. Ever. Just ease on the pedaling and don't even stop pedaling, and you'll just drift slowly to a different pace if you find yourself closing on the wheel in front of you. You should be able to do this and never be more than a foot from the wheel in front of you, and properly half of that. If you have to close a gap, do it gently so the people behind you don't even notice what you've done.

Seventh, if you get tense, wiggle your toes, wiggle your fingers. That will make you relax on the bike and not tense up. Magic trick. And don't teach pacelines with aero bars. And don't get too low or too aggressive in position. You need to be relaxed and comfortable. If you're relaxed, the guy behind you will be relaxed, and that will carry all the way down the line.

Eighth, gear low. The guys who are trying to pull a 70 cadence in a bigger gear can't adjust speed and keep it as even as the guys riding comfortably in a 90-100 cadence.

Ninth, if you're having problems, get to the front, do your turn, then pull off and let them go. If you can't make it to the front, be sure nobody's coming back at you from their turn at the front and pull up smoothly with your last bit of pre-vomit energy and overlap the rider in front of you halfway. Wave the rider behind you up into that gap and you've covering them and getting them into position. On the track it's easy and intuitively obvious; on the road you have to figure out which side riders are coming off on, whether you have room on the curb side to exit, and so on. Do this sensibly. But don't just gap and then pull out. If you know you can't sustain a paceline pace, get to the front and come off from there. Then nobody else is discomfited.

Tenth, don't be drinking or eating in a practice paceline. That's what you do when the drill is over. You should be focused on being the smoothest cat on the road. Take a sip before the drill starts.

Eleventh, obviously have the whole line in agreement on what road hazards get called out, and how. Pacelines never communicate a pothole or glass in time and voices absolutely don't work. Save the lungs for when it's a real problem like a car, or whatever. The lead rider needs to be sure ALWAYS to signal the riders behind him to avoid parked cars, potholes, etc. And every rider behind the lead needs to be alert to what the riders in front are doing. Every now and then a team pursuit or team sprint on the track will take off, progress to the opposite side of the track, and officials will have messed up and not gotten the starting gate out of the way there. So two to four riders charge into a two-hundred pound piece of angle iron. It's not pretty. On the road, there are always parked cars, road furniture, etc. Everyone has a huge responsibility to the rest to communicate and to watch. And again, a yell doesn't work -- it won't be heard more than a couple riders back. To make all of this easier, don't do it on a course where there are already hazards to deal with. And I always like to make sure that everyone has ridden a warm-up on the stretch of road first just to know what's there.

Twelfth, always follow the wrists of the rider in front of you, not their rear wheel. If the wrists move to steer or to brake or just change position, you'll know before the rear wheel drifts back into you. Looking with glazed eyes at a rear wheel is the best way to clip wheels, and it's an addictive behavior when one is working hard on a line.

That's just the beginning. But understand that a really good (and really safe) paceline is a work of art and it involves a lot of concentration.

If someone was critiquing your gearing, they may have meant you were gearing too high for the speed, not that you had too small a chainring. See my point above. But it's also true that putting a paceline together for the first time in the spring is an exercise that makes passing a healthcare reform act look simple.

Edit: Jeez. Way too wordy. My bad.

[EDS]

SIG? If so, your gearing should be fine. Usually there is a huge gap in abilities/strength/fitness, particularly at the beginning of the program, so hopefully things smooth out in your group.

[Cloozoe]

Originally Posted by 11.4

I've been on lots of early season team rides where we basically do this for new team members. And I have to say that there isn't a spring on the track when we don't do regulated-speed pacelines for extended warmup and use it to teach skills. Even riders who've been on trainers all winter or who just don't do that well even with years of practice are beneficiaries of the drills.

So, a few points.

First, nobody needs to be a jerk. If they are, talk back. Early season, everybody has some rough days.

Second, there are days when pacelines are just plain awful. The same group can look like a world championship time trial team on one day and the next week look like complete rubes. So give any paceline a chance.

Third, it only takes one or two riders to really discombobulate a whole paceline. If one rider is surging or slipping a bit, there's a chain reaction. Riders pop out of the line so they don't run into you, or they have to accelerate to catch your wheel again, and everybody is getting pissed.

Fourth, without an accurate speedometer/cyclometer on your bike, it's hard to play the game. Set a speed and distance, such as 3 miles at 18 mph, 3 miles at 20 mph, 3 miles at 23 mph, 2 miles at 25 mph, 2 miles at 28 mph, 2 miles at 30 mph. What usually happens is that the rider in front screws up and either surges off the front or suddenly is facing wind and slows down.

Fifth, when doing paceline drills, don't do speeds faster than everyone can handle easily. You can do escalating steps like described above, and riders will figure out when they start to get ragged and can work on it, and if a speed is simply too fast a rider can drop off while the others finish the run and then regroup.

Sixth, anybody can be tense when riding in close formation. In road paceline drills, you want to be passing back down the side with your knuckles within a few inches of the next rider. That means everyone needs to stay in line and not pop out and run into a rider coming back. You also don't want to hit brakes. Ever. Just ease on the pedaling and don't even stop pedaling, and you'll just drift slowly to a different pace if you find yourself closing on the wheel in front of you. You should be able to do this and never be more than a foot from the wheel in front of you, and properly half of that. If you have to close a gap, do it gently so the people behind you don't even notice what you've done.

Seventh, if you get tense, wiggle your toes, wiggle your fingers. That will make you relax on the bike and not tense up. Magic trick. And don't teach pacelines with aero bars. And don't get too low or too aggressive in position. You need to be relaxed and comfortable. If you're relaxed, the guy behind you will be relaxed, and that will carry all the way down the line.

Eighth, gear low. The guys who are trying to pull a 70 cadence in a bigger gear can't adjust speed and keep it as even as the guys riding comfortably in a 90-100 cadence.

Ninth, if you're having problems, get to the front, do your turn, then pull off and let them go. If you can't make it to the front, be sure nobody's coming back at you from their turn at the front and pull up smoothly with your last bit of pre-vomit energy and overlap the rider in front of you halfway. Wave the rider behind you up into that gap and you've covering them and getting them into position. On the track it's easy and intuitively obvious; on the road you have to figure out which side riders are coming off on, whether you have room on the curb side to exit, and so on. Do this sensibly. But don't just gap and then pull out. If you know you can't sustain a paceline pace, get to the front and come off from there. Then nobody else is discomfited.

Tenth, don't be drinking or eating in a practice paceline. That's what you do when the drill is over. You should be focused on being the smoothest cat on the road. Take a sip before the drill starts.

Eleventh, obviously have the whole line in agreement on what road hazards get called out, and how. Pacelines never communicate a pothole or glass in time and voices absolutely don't work. Save the lungs for when it's a real problem like a car, or whatever. The lead rider needs to be sure ALWAYS to signal the riders behind him to avoid parked cars, potholes, etc. And every rider behind the lead needs to be alert to what the riders in front are doing. Every now and then a team pursuit or team sprint on the track will take off, progress to the opposite side of the track, and officials will have messed up and not gotten the starting gate out of the way there. So two to four riders charge into a two-hundred pound piece of angle iron. It's not pretty. On the road, there are always parked cars, road furniture, etc. Everyone has a huge responsibility to the rest to communicate and to watch. And again, a yell doesn't work -- it won't be heard more than a couple riders back. To make all of this easier, don't do it on a course where there are already hazards to deal with. And I always like to make sure that everyone has ridden a warm-up on the stretch of road first just to know what's there.

Twelfth, always follow the wrists of the rider in front of you, not their rear wheel. If the wrists move to steer or to brake or just change position, you'll know before the rear wheel drifts back into you. Looking with glazed eyes at a rear wheel is the best way to clip wheels, and it's an addictive behavior when one is working hard on a line.

That's just the beginning. But understand that a really good (and really safe) paceline is a work of art and it involves a lot of concentration.

If someone was critiquing your gearing, they may have meant you were gearing too high for the speed, not that you had too small a chainring. See my point above. But it's also true that putting a paceline together for the first time in the spring is an exercise that makes passing a healthcare reform act look simple.

Edit: Jeez. Way too wordy. My bad.

Too wordy?! To this non paceliner cyclist it was a fascinating explanation. Thanks!

[brockd15]

I've never been a group rider so this is all really interesting. There's much more to it than it seems.

shovelhd, Ti Designs,
Once a rider gets to the front how long should a pull last before they peel off?

[FlashUNC]

All depends on what kind of paceline you're running. Nobody should be hanging there terribly long. And if you're gassed you won't have enough to jump back on the back as you rotate back.

Just don't be that jerk who pulls off at the bottom of an incline.

[djg21]

Originally Posted by tctyres

I'm turning to you guys with a bunch of pacelining experience on a query I got after Saturday's ride. The group is set to get everyone pacelining evenly over long distances. It's essentially a weeks long training program through the end of May. One comment was that maybe I was out of sync because of my gearing: a cx70 46/36 on the front with a 5800 11/28 on the rear. I didn't have any trouble holding speed or drafting. The problem was in my "smoothness."

OK. I can handle that feedback. I'm not really sure that was the problem, though. I think the "look" of my steel bike (a Black Mountain road) was more problematic, but I have no idea.

The whole thing was a bit of a Y-chromosome macho-disaster, imo --- lots of surging, bad line picks, poor communication, a group leader who could have toned it down. Mentally, I was out of it before the ride was half done. I kind of want to delete it from my strava. I think being out of it mentally was more of the issue here.

So you guys who have the experience with choice of gears, is the mid range on the 46-36 problematic? Should I solely be riding 53-39 on these rides? What could be the hurdles I'm facing? I've got extra cranks and rings here, so switching is relatively easy.

It's not the gearing per se. If you are surging at the front, you may want to try shifting into a larger gear, which will help you maintain a smoother more consistent speed without accelerating. The hardest part of the paceline should be getting on the back, and not pulling at the front.

Other than that, it may just be that you need to spend time more time riding in groups and working on group riding skills like looking way ahead, and not at the guy/gal in front of you or his/her wheel, etc.

[bikingshearer]

Originally Posted by brockd15

I've never been a group rider so this is all really interesting. There's much more to it than it seems.

shovelhd, Ti Designs,
Once a rider gets to the front how long should a pull last before they peel off?

This is coming from someone who stopped racing many years ago (and was never any good at it) but learned pacelining from some very good riders. I use such pacelining knowledge as I have occasionally on rides with friends and occasionally at the end of an event ride organizing whoever is straggling at the back like me. With that caveat . . .

It really is not hard as long as you can (1) hold your line and (2) hold your pace. In other words, don't wobble and don't surge-and-slack. The rest is details - important details (like not overlapping the wheel in front of you), but if you can do (1) and (2), you can pick up those details pretty quickly with common sense and a more experienced paceline rider giving you tips. If you can't do (1) and (2), you should not be in the paceline.

As for how long a pull, a lot depends on what kind of paceline it is. A line in a race is a different animal from a line in a training ride which is a different animal from a line of people trying to survive the last 15 miles of a century ride which is a different animal from a line in a club fun ride on a windy day.

In a racing line there are too many tactical considerations that I know nothing about for me to comment on.

For the others, how long a pull to take depends in my mind on two variables: how many people are in the line and how you feel relative to the others. For me, the optimum with two riders is maybe 30 seconds on the front and for eight or more riders you swing off as soon as the rider who swung off before you has cleared your rear wheel so you have the double-line going. For 3 to 7 riders, something between those two.

However, if you are feeling bad or you are noticeably weaker than everyone else, make all your pulls like the 8+ person line; pull off as soon as the previous leader clears your rear wheel. If you are the sheppard bringing the flock home at the end of a ride and feel noticeably better than everyone else, take longer pulls while making sure the others take normal or short pulls.

If you're a big guy like me and it's 17 miles of flatland headwind back to the barn, get used to the idea of spindly-legged climbing farts glued to your rear wheel as if their lives depended on it.

Others will no doubt have other thoughts on this, and I welcome them. But that's my admittedly non-competitive take.

[tylercheung]

it's interesting for me to read all this stuff too - my cycling is more of a personal experience so I don't like to race or do "training" group rides (although I will try and maintain a pace around a course for fitness). The few times I did a ride like that I got dropped, and felt totally fried and vomited once. I also have an allergic reaction to logos on lycra. But its interested to see how the dynamics and typical training group rides like this pan out.

But...on the risk of derailing this thread...post pics of the Black Mountain bike!

[Tickdoc]

I agree with peter. Smoothness helps, but gearing is irrelevant. I mean, you don't want to be like mr bean, but smoothness helps.



I'm curious how many paceline rides you have been on? It does take a while to get to know a group, but you should be able to jump on and maintain without disrupting the group....unless they are a hardcore bunch and don't take kindly to strangers.

I love it when a good group is in motion, and everyone is in sync, not just for the speed, but there is a certain zen aspect there that helps the miles fly by.

It took me a while to learn not to surge when my turn at the front came. Took a while to learn the proper safe distance to the guy in front, and the hand signals, and the list goes on, but most groups will help you if you ask. I don't pay attention to gearing, but I do think of smoothness in a pace group more than just tooling around solo.

Here's my group coming in at the end of a long days ride last year: ( I'm 2nd off the back)
( not my meme, btw)

[HenryA]

Lose that big group -- don't ride with them. Find four or five other like minded riders and figure out riding a paceline with those guys. Practice slow and easy in the beginning. Do everything right. Let speed come later.

[shovelhd]

Fantastic job, 11.4, all around. Especially the part about when you realize that you are in over your head, gas it for all you're worth and pull up next to the rider that was in front of you, which will naturally pull everyone behind you up to him/her. Then sit up, fall back, and catch your breath.

A couple things to add. Most of us don't paceline on the track, we ride on roads with traffic. Be conscious of the vehicle traffic, even if that means waiting a few more seconds to come off the front. It's much better to give the vehicle more room to pass the group. Also, I drink on my way back to the line, or on the back, unless I'm surrounded completely by riders I trust. Finally, when you are on the front, don't be "that guy" who rides away from the group without ever looking back. You have a responsibility on the front. You are leading the group. You should know the gap between your rear wheel and the front wheel of the rider behind you. You can use shadows on the road, or peek back under your shoulder. I use a bar end mirror. Check every 20-30 seconds.

Oh yeah, one more thing, how to skip a pull by hanging on the back. If you are capable of working in the group you are in, but you need a short break, maybe because someone surged and gapped you, there was an incline just after you came off the front and you had to go into the red to stay on, or it's getting towards the end and the speed is picking up...lots of good reasons to skip a pull. What you don't want to be is disruptive. To stay on the back of the group, watch for the rider pulling off the front. Then move left and slow a bit to open a gap in front of you. Signal to that rider to pull into the gap, then latch onto his wheel. Make sure the gap is big enough so that he/she isn't concerned about fitting into the space. You don't have to skip a full rotation, just as many riders as you need for your rest. It's also the way to get away from a rider you don't want to ride behind.

Originally Posted by brockd15

I've never been a group rider so this is all really interesting. There's much more to it than it seems.

shovelhd, Ti Designs,
Once a rider gets to the front how long should a pull last before they peel off?

There's really no answer to this question. It depends. I've done stints on the front of the A ride for 10-20 seconds, and I've pulled a B group for 20 miles when they were all out of gas from 6K+ of climbing. It just depends. The way to figure it out is look for the riders that know what they are doing, and do what they do. For a fast weekly ride that is advertised as fast, and groups riders by ability/speed/category, they should be short. Less than a minute. The object is to go fast not show off. For club rides it can be minutes or more. Also, there's nothing wrong with asserting yourself on a club ride when one rider is hogging the front. Just take the front away from him/her. They'll get the message. Or maybe not.

[Tandem Rider]

Originally Posted by shovelhd

Oh yeah, one more thing, how to skip a pull by hanging on the back. If you are capable of working in the group you are in, but you need a short break, maybe because someone surged and gapped you, there was an incline just after you came off the front and you had to go into the red to stay on, or it's getting towards the end and the speed is picking up...lots of good reasons to skip a pull. What you don't want to be is disruptive. To stay on the back of the group, watch for the rider pulling off the front. Then move left and slow a bit to open a gap in front of you. Signal to that rider to pull into the gap, then latch onto his wheel. Make sure the gap is big enough so that he/she isn't concerned about fitting into the space. You don't have to skip a full rotation, just as many riders as you need for your rest. It's also the way to get away from a rider you don't want to ride behind.

Another smooth way to do this is while you are on the back, to slide over and get behind the rider dropping back just as his rear wheel lines up with the one you are already behind. Then follow him back until the next rider comes back, repeat. You are switching back and forth from one side to the other depending on which rider is farthest back, even if only by an inch, always sheltered. This always feels safer to me because your front wheel is more protected, there is no guessing if you are back far enough, being wrong and getting your wheel swept when everyone is gassed and judgments are poor.