Question on gearing and group pacelining

[11.4]

And then there's the double paceline -- not where you're rotating in a loop but where you have two riders next to each other moving to the front and then peeling off on each side. It's a nice way to bring newcomers into a ride, because you can have conversations. But in this case, if you slip out of sync, you knock everyone else out of sync and disrupt a lot of conversations going on in the paceline. If it's a long ride on empty roads and you can use up more of the road without obstructing cars incessantly, this kind of paceline is very social and can be very fast.

[11.4]

Originally Posted by brockd15

I've never been a group rider so this is all really interesting. There's much more to it than it seems.

shovelhd, Ti Designs,
Once a rider gets to the front how long should a pull last before they peel off?

The faster the pace, the shorter the time at the front, generally speaking. If it's a conversational pace, you may spend a minute or longer at the front. If it's that conversational, it tends to devolve into a double paceline or simply a mob, because it's hard to talk when you're in single file. At the other end, when it really gets painful, you just emerge at the front and pull to the side. You give a windbreak to the guy who was right in front of you and is now moving back right behind you, and you'll have that same protection in just a second. The paceline is constantly revolving. Everybody is working hard just to keep the pace super high getting up to the front. You almost always have a draft but you don't have a case where one rider is leading the line for a substantial period. It's a beautiful thing to watch when this kind of line is moving well. It's incredibly fast and you find you're dealing more with the sheer speed of it than with whether you can handle the wind.

[FL_MarkD]

Good discussion and inputs.

I always like to remember the 4 S of pacelines: Steady, Safe, Strong, and Smiling

If the riders are all of those, you have a great group.

[carpediemracing]

Although not for a new rider to pacelines, overlapping wheels is often the most efficient way to draft another rider. With some low speed wheel touching drills it's possible to learn to handle some light to somewhat-significant front wheel touches without falling.

The faster the paceline is going the more important drafting is as far as saving energy. The more important drafting is the closer you have to be to the next rider. With even a small amount of lateral wind aka "crosswind" you'll need to move to one side or another of the rider in front of you.

Again, this is not for a rider new to riding in a paceline.

[Ti Designs]

Originally Posted by Tandem Rider

Another smooth way to do this is while you are on the back, to slide over and get behind the rider dropping back just as his rear wheel lines up with the one you are already behind. Then follow him back until the next rider comes back, repeat. You are switching back and forth from one side to the other depending on which rider is farthest back, even if only by an inch, always sheltered. This always feels safer to me because your front wheel is more protected, there is no guessing if you are back far enough, being wrong and getting your wheel swept when everyone is gassed and judgments are poor.

This is known as ticket punching. you pick up the wheel coming back, stay just off to the side so when they're looking for that last wheel they don't even see you. If you're good at it you can ticket punch all day long and they hardly know you're there. TR also makes a very good point about safety, when you pick up a wheel you have control over the gap. Riders getting back on are known to do whatever it takes to reaccelerate...

This brings me to a high tech device I keep on my bike to tell resulting wind direction. When drafting your goal is to be in the slipstream of the rider you're drafting, but that slipstream isn't always straight ahead. If you're going 20 MPH and there's a 20 MPH side wind, you want the rider you're drafting to be at a 45 degree angle to you. My high tech device senses wind direction as well as my own direction and velocity, and displays the resulting wind direction - that's what you're really looking for shelter from. The high tech device is often mistaken for a piece of yarn attached to my handlebars...

[tctyres]

Tons of great info all around.
Regarding fit: I sent Mike Varley my competitive cyclist numbers, and he gave me the best fit via cad. I've adjusted things up and down, but come back to close to the original numbers. (The bike is in the production bikes thread.)
Regarding experience: I'd say this is like my 10th paceline ride in 3 years. I really learned the basics two summers ago, but I found it frustrating and boring. I went off grid and did a whole bunch of solo stuff including a ton of centuries, touring, and double metric randonees. I get by on a bike.

I like going fast. To go faster, I need a paceline. It seems like a good paceline is hard to find this time of year, so I need to ease up and roll with the punches here.

None of these guys are going to drop me on these rides, at least not yet. I even doubt that it would be possible to drop me on a drop ride.

It sounds like what I need to do is just pin my wheel on the guy in front of me and not worry about the surge off the front. When I lead, keep the pace. Slow or increase on down/uphills. Focus on keeping it smooth.

[Bob Ross]

Originally Posted by tctyres

I'm not sure whether I should keep the wheel or the "feel." I'm trying to keep the effort the same.

You're talking about an NYCC A-Classic SIG ride, right? ...definitely keep the feel.

And then tell them I said so.

[tctyres]

Oh, that Bob Ross

[carpediemracing]

Also, regarding gears.... In a race a while ago my front der cable stop broke, effectively shifting me into the 39T for the rest of the race. I used just two gears, 39x11, 39x12, equal to 53x15 and 53x16, and most of the time I was in the 12 because the chain hitting the chainring in the 39x11 drives me batty.

Nonetheless, although I couldn't go with the break or the chase, I decisively won the field sprint.

I was much, much smoother with the lower gears. I was racing like I was going to get shelled the next lap, so not really trying to save energy etc. I had to adapt my tactics for the lower gears (and realized real quick why Juniors have to go so early in a sprint), but the race went pretty well overall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu7i5N0ef5I

[tctyres]

I want to bump this because the program was 2 months. I completed it, learned a lot, and made some new friends. These pacelines are like friendly racing lines. I feel a lot more confident in my riding and ability to ride a few inches from wheel in front of me.

I think the comment on good pacelines being hard to find in March is true. By May, the pacelines were smooth, clean, and easy to understand. They were plug-and-play among the 20-30 riders who completed the program. If something was funny - a chain dropped, a flat, or a water bottle jumped - the paceline would break in sync, safely. It was neat to experience this transformation. I could go out with any one of them today and have a fun clean ride.

The people with fitness problems or who lacked a group mentality got cut. You need to pay attention to who is around you, how they are riding, and how they are doing both mentally and physically. Some people just weren't OK with a group. Some people were just not fit enough, and it was dragging the group down. I've done some laps in Central Park since with different groups, and it just becomes a "smh" experience. Going fast with skills is more fun than bludgeoning through speed with no skills. Predictability on the line helps everyone.

Several of the group leaders were very, very good at teaching. I had the benefit of one week where two group leaders put a lot of effort into my riding. One accused me of being inconsistent. I said that I probably was and was confused as to how to pull. When I rotated back to the front, he got on my wheel and coached me through a pull. It was very informative. I could figure out the feel from that. Another coached me on how to pull the group over a hill and accelerate down --- also very informative.

By the end of the program, "the feel" was good, but there was also a need for speed --- through rollers, on flat racy segments, and just to have fun. For those times, a speedometer was essential. (Others can disagree, but I think a speedometer is always essential. A power meter is good too, especially if someone in the group could call out too much or not enough).

Overall, I'm glad I stuck with it. I've never wanted to race, but now I see the appeal of speed and skills.

Thanks to all you here who commented and had constructive things to say. It is appreciated.

Edit: And I did the program on a 46/36 with 11-28 in the back -- no problems, but that 46 doesn't have the gear inches I need to go faster