Frame alignemnt question

[bitpuddle]

Originally Posted by yashcha

Thank you Dave, still waiting on a response from the builder but as they are in Europe I think having them examine it will be impossible. The axles are all the way in the dropouts on both sides and I tested this numerous times.
This is actually the second frame they made since the first one was off center by even more, both in the chainstay and the Seatstay. Sigh.

Not that this helps, but I had a similar experience with a U.S. builder. The first frame I received was way out of alignment. After discussion, he replaced it, but the replacement is also a bit out. Not as bad as the first frame, but also not perfect.

I still ride it, but I'm not entirely happy. It won't end up being a long-term frame for me.

[Doug Fattic]

I’ll repeat myself and say again that the most challenging part of building a bicycle frame accurately out of metal is getting the rear triangle just right so a true wheel will center. A $5000 fixture does not insure that will happen. In fact relying totally on the fixture is probably a mistake. There is a reason classic builders before and after WWII used long slot dropouts so screw adjustors took care of half of that problem. I bet that if more people carefully checked their frames they would find this is not an uncommon problem.

[pinkshogun]

That 10" round file that Mr. Fattic recommended to me a little ways back has become a valuable friend

[yashcha]

Originally Posted by Cicli

Any updates on this?

Sorry for the late update guys, i moved back to China and have been super busy.

I finally built up the frame and fork and it can not be ridden no handed. Pulls really hard to the right. The fork is also crooked. Visually, one blade is longer than the other.

On top of that I found big gaps where there is no braze material between the lug and the tubing. I contacted Jaegher and they said they would inspect it but I have to pay shipping both ways, which would have been like $600.

having experienced how little quality control they have, I decided against having them "fix" the frame. Instead I am getting it fixed locally(boston) and repainted here as well. Overall about a $800 loss. Jaegher is a huge mess and i strongly urge members on this forum to not buy from them. Unless you want a frame to come in the wrong color, sent to the wrong address, with terrible craftsmanship, and sent 8 months late.

Also. I saw the German guys Jaegher. It was also a complete mess. The fix they did looked so poor in quality it is unblievable that they would let it out of QC.

[rallizes]

ugh, i am sorry to hear that.

i can't believe someone would be ok sending out such shoddy work.

who are you working with in boston?

[ultraman6970]

If the frame was put in the table and fixed, sure mike? check it it was straight, that takes me to the fork... pretty much everybody is using carbon fork, how is possible that that the fork was faulty from factory??? or you have a fork made by them?

If the fork is wrong I would swap it. if you come back to VA wonder if 611 bike can fix the problems you have with the brazing, that kid really can handle a torch.

[yashcha]

Originally Posted by rallizes

ugh, i am sorry to hear that.

i can't believe someone would be ok sending out such shoddy work.

who are you working with in boston?

Yeah. The big joke was they sent me a quality control card with about 15 checks they were supposed to do before shipping out the frame. Only two of the checks were done.

I left the frame with a good friend who knows several frame builders. Not sure who will eventually fix the frame and do the final paint, but luckily boston is filled with world class frame builders.

[yashcha]

Originally Posted by ultraman6970

If the frame was put in the table and fixed, sure mike? check it it was straight, that takes me to the fork... pretty much everybody is using carbon fork, how is possible that that the fork was faulty from factory??? or you have a fork made by them?

If the fork is wrong I would swap it. if you come back to VA wonder if 611 bike can fix the problems you have with the brazing, that kid really can handle a torch.

Fork was also custom made by Jaegher. If it can't be fixed I will throw a Enve 2.0 on there. Thabks to Mike the frame is as straight as it can be. Unfortunately there are some issues with many of the lug tube joint area.

[ultraman6970]

Custom made fork???????!!!!! WT*??? who in their sane judgement would do that???? I feel your pain man.. They proudly sent you the QC card eh?

I think the 1st thing to do is strip all the paint and see whats under it. Please post pictures when the frame is ready to go.

[yashcha]

Originally Posted by ultraman6970

Custom made fork???????!!!!! WT*??? who in their sane judgement would do that???? I feel your pain man.. They proudly sent you the QC card eh?

I think the 1st thing to do is strip all the paint and see whats under it. Please post pictures when the frame is ready to go.

Totally Ultra. This saga is so bizarre it is almost funny if I did not spend so much $$$

The worst part was I paid an extra 80 euros for the custom steel fork.

[Peter P.]

Thanks for the update. I feel for ya' pal, because I've been there too.

Hopefully your friend will ask the repair shop to photo document the flaws after the frame is stripped and give them to you, provided they could repair it.

I once had a frame built by a friend and hobby-builder. Then I took it to a professional to have it checked for alignment and painted. The pro said he tried to align it but when one spot was in spec, another would go out of spec. It wasn't built straight to begin with and there was not much that could be done about it. The result was a frame that would pull to the left when riding no-hands.

I look forward to hopefully hearing a happy ending to this saga.

[yashcha]

Originally Posted by Peter P.

Thanks for the update. I feel for ya' pal, because I've been there too.

Hopefully your friend will ask the repair shop to photo document the flaws after the frame is stripped and give them to you, provided they could repair it.

I once had a frame built by a friend and hobby-builder. Then I took it to a professional to have it checked for alignment and painted. The pro said he tried to align it but when one spot was in spec, another would go out of spec. It wasn't built straight to begin with and there was not much that could be done about it. The result was a frame that would pull to the left when riding no-hands.

I look forward to hopefully hearing a happy ending to this saga.

Thanks Peter. If it cant be fixed, my german friend who is also dealing with a faulty Jaegher said "you just bought 2000 euro tubes."

[Tim Porter]

This is all so weird and unfortunate. My Jaegher (albeit a TIG welded model with a Columbus fork) has been pretty much perfect and rides really well and in a straight line. Not sure what's going on there but I'd certainly have a discussion before ordering another bike. Is your German friend's bike also a lugged model? Maybe that's where they're having difficulties with alignment because a different guy makes those????

[yashcha]

Originally Posted by Tim Porter

This is all so weird and unfortunate. My Jaegher (albeit a TIG welded model with a Columbus fork) has been pretty much perfect and rides really well and in a straight line. Not sure what's going on there but I'd certainly have a discussion before ordering another bike. Is your German friend's bike also a lugged model? Maybe that's where they're having difficulties with alignment because a different guy makes those????

Yes, we both have the lugged phantom model. I think his bike's problem was that the geometry was not what he ordered. I think the tig welded ones tend to be straighter and have less problems. I have noticed lately that there are Jaegher frames that pop up on social media but there are no pictures of them actually built up. I always wonder if they were sent back to jaegher to fix what ever problem it had.

Tim, I am glad yours came out well, i have seen pictures of it and it is a great looking bike!

[David Kirk]

At the risk of being a serious bummer I feel compelled to share my opinion here.....

My professional advise would be to cut your losses and put this frame on a hook and call it a day. It sucks to say that but based on what you have shared here I think it's the only real option IMO.

A lugged frame gets its strength and safety from the simple fact that the entire space inside the lugs is full of brass or silver. To work as it should it needs to be 100% full of filler right down into the deepest section of the lug where the two tubes contact each other. Properly done a lugged joint is bullet proof.

The issue is that one can never tell from the outside if the lugs are 100% full of filler. A builder can merely make sure that the exposed edges of the lugs are full so that it all looks good and then hope for the best. If this is done the frame is sure to fail over time....and maybe not much time at that. Since there is much evidence that real attention to detail was not given to this piece of work, and since there are obvious gaps in the braze, I worry that the lugs are not full and therefore not safe for long term use.

One can fix this if need be as anything can be fixed given enough time and money. One could strip the paint from all the joints and then "reflow" all the joints which is really just rebrazing them to be sure that any voids are eliminated. It's by no means optimal as the joints will all go through another heat cycle and who knows how much heat the joints have already seen.

So the paint should be stripped, the joints should be chemically cleaned, fluxed, brazed, soaked clean and then refinished. The reaming and facing will need to be redone/checked and the alignment will then need to be checked and tweaked as need be. Then it will need to be repainted. This will take many hours of labor and will cost a real sum of money. I can't imagine you'd find a pro that would do this work for anything less than $1200 for the frame and fork....if you can find someone who is willing to take on the liability.

You are going to spend real time, money and emotional energy to get to the end of this and in the end you might have a bike that is safe to use. But will you want to use it? I think most wouldn't enjoy it at this point. All the time and money spent to make this usable could be saved and put toward having a reputable pro build you something you can climb onto for years to come that is free from stories and compromise. I can't see why you would throw good money after bad on this one.

I apologize for meddling. You drew the short straw on this one and that really sucks. There are so many good builders out there that will give you a well built and safe bike...you just got unlucky and didn't work with one of those builders. It sucks and I feel for you.

dave