What to do when builder becomes unresponsive?

[Heisenberg]

Originally Posted by ANAO

His price was $1,600 for a tig-welded single-color ppwdercoated frame.

For 4 frames, all done in the same color with true temper ox platinum tig-welded, he offered them to us for $1,200.

FFS - first sign of trouble.

[seanile]

Originally Posted by Heisenberg

FFS - first sign of trouble.

how's that?
i've seen around $1600 plenty for start-ups.
geekhouse and meriwether are both starting at $1900 now, and they've both been doing reputable work for a while. and i'm pretty sure i got my geekhouse for $1600 in 2012.
hell, gunnar starts at $1450 for custom steel, and marinoni at $1400.

[joosttx]

Originally Posted by David Kirk

I'm sorry to hear that.

I'm guessing the chance of getting any money back, or any completed frames, is near nil. I hate to say this but I think you'll have to walk away from the money.

With any luck he still has your parts. He may have sold them to feed the beast or they may be sitting forgotten in a corner. I'd concentrate on limiting your loss and trying to get your parts back.

I hate reading stories like this.....it's a lose-lose deal if ever there was one. The client loses and all the good, honest and professional builders out there suffer after being tarred with the same brush as the guy who takes the money and runs. A number of years ago I had a guy ask for his deposit back because he "learned that all of us framebuilders are crooks" and he wanted out. It sucks for everyone.

A few words of advice for you going forward or for others that want to do biz with a framebuilder. Talk to them and really listen to what they say and not what you want to hear. Are they promising things that are too good to be true? Do they want payment in full up front? Do they need all your parts before they will start the build? Do they only talk to you when they want money? If the answer to any of the above is "yes" then walk away and do biz with a real pro. No real pro will ask for any of this stuff. When was the last time you heard anything like this about Crumpton, or Strong, or Ellis or etc....? Do any of these guys ask for money and disappear? Nope.

This could be easily misconstrued as blaming the victim and I don't mean to imply that. I'm just saying that if it seems too good to be true and the builder wants money up front to say thanks but no thanks and find a pro.

Again - I'm sorry to hear about your frustrating situation.

dave

So true. I have had 5 bikes made by "bespoke" builders or companies. All but one has been through a bike shop intermediatary. The one that wasn't through a bike shop was a less than ideal experience which soured my go-direct-to-the-builder experience. With that said the builders you listed I never heard anything remotely bad- and I hear a lot of gossip and stories.

[hokoman]

Originally Posted by seanile

how's that?
i've seen around $1600 plenty for start-ups.
geekhouse and meriwether are both starting at $1900 now, and they've both been doing reputable work for a while. and i'm pretty sure i got my geekhouse for $1600 in 2012.
hell, gunnar starts at $1450 for custom steel, and marinoni at $1400.

I think it's more the discount aspect, not the pricing. If a builder starts discounting his frames to get people to order them - it's probably a struggling business. Most start lower, and as their reputation and workmanship get better, they raise prices.

[seanile]

Originally Posted by hokoman

I think it's more the discount aspect, not the pricing. If a builder starts discounting his frames to get people to order them - it's probably a struggling business. Most start lower, and as their reputation and workmanship get better, they raise prices.

id agree, but the discount was tied to a group buy, which is standard practice from my experience. when i was at Northeastern, the road team actually had what looked to be a successful group buy from spooky (ironic right?), and the deal was a discount in exchange for exposure/advertising. but yea, 25% may have been too steep of a discount to be a reasonable business decision.

edit: this is all neither here nor there at this point. i think the OP has gotten what he needs out of this thread..

[ANAO]

Through my office tools, I was able to pull a phone number of some management agency at the real estate where his office was located. Seth and I are going to reach out and see if we could poke around his shop. Hopefully our stuff is there. If not, we'll go back to his sister and offer to compensate her in exchange for legitimate info re: any storage unit.

I'll keep you all abreast of the situation as/if it unfolds. But yes, I'm coming to terms and will likely just write this whole thing off, unfortunately. Time to begin saving for my first custom bike, again

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Corso]

Addiction or not: He stole from you.

Don’t feel bad about doing everything within the law to recover your losses.

If you can sleep at night with “just letting it go”, and accepting the loss, so be it.

But if it’s always going to bother you, you have to try. And from what I’m reading, it bothers you.

[54ny77]

This is 100% spot on.

Perfect example: I've had a minor deposit on with Della Santa for quite a few years now, and the holdup for completion is entirely on me. I've just keep forgetting and/or have been slacking about getting my info over to him. There is no rush (I don't need the bike), although I probably need to get on it in case he thinks about hanging up the torch soon.

Not once has he ever called me asking me for $. But we've talked several times just shooting the s&^%!, and those are some of the best bike-related and interpersonal conversations ever. He's such a class act.

There are plenty of class acts in the framebuilding world. It's too bad a handful of idiots/scammers/dreamers who burn customers sully the reputation of the industry.

Originally Posted by David Kirk

A few words of advice for you going forward or for others that want to do biz with a framebuilder. Talk to them and really listen to what they say and not what you want to hear. Are they promising things that are too good to be true? Do they want payment in full up front? Do they need all your parts before they will start the build? Do they only talk to you when they want money? If the answer to any of the above is "yes" then walk away and do biz with a real pro. No real pro will ask for any of this stuff. When was the last time you heard anything like this about Crumpton, or Strong, or Ellis or etc....? Do any of these guys ask for money and disappear? Nope.

[bobswire]

Originally Posted by 54ny77

This is 100% spot on.

Perfect example: I've had a minor deposit on with Della Santa for quite a few years now, and the holdup for completion is entirely on me. I've just keep forgetting and/or have been slacking about getting my info over to him. There is no rush (I don't need the bike), although I probably need to get on it in case he thinks about hanging up the torch soon.

Not once has he ever called me asking me for $. But we've talked several times just shooting the s&^%!, and those are some of the best bike-related and interpersonal conversations ever. He's such a class act.

There are plenty of class acts in the framebuilding world. It's too bad a handful of idiots/scammers/dreamers who burn customers sully the reputation of the industry.

I still have a spec sheet with sizing and price quote of $1400 from Roland from a few years ago. Maybe I should follow through with it?

[54ny77]

Yeah this thread reminded me i really need to get on it as well.

Life gets in the way, I keep forgetting to send in my #'s, yadda yadda.

What I really want to do is go to Reno and meet the guy in person and have him size me up, but he doesn't do that. Your 1-pager is the same I have, I'm sure. I even said just build me a 54 or 55 square, that'll be fine and I trust you to do the rest. Nope! He wants it on paper. In other words, a professional.

We share a few similar friends/acquaintances, and I really enjoy the time I spend chatting with him and getting caught up every once in a blue moon.

Originally Posted by bobswire

I still have a spec sheet with sizing and price quote of $1400 from Roland from a few years ago. Maybe I should follow through with it?

[RedRider]

If the problem was truly caused by an addiction, I doubt there is even dust in that storage locker. An addict would even sell his tools to feed a habit. There's zero chance you will find a stack of tubes or semi finished frames with your names on them.
Yes, you should pursue legal channels but don't expect much. File a judgement or lien whichever is appropriate. If he emerges from rehab sober he might want to work out some repayment schedule. Your group is probably not the only one he owes money.

[bobswire]

Originally Posted by 54ny77

Yeah this thread reminded me i really need to get on it as well.

Life gets in the way, I keep forgetting to send in my #'s, yadda yadda.

What I really want to do is go to Reno and meet the guy in person and have him size me up, but he doesn't do that. Your 1-pager is the same I have, I'm sure. I even said just build me a 54 or 55 square, that'll be fine and I trust you to do the rest. Nope! He wants it on paper. In other words, a professional.

We share a few similar friends/acquaintances, and I really enjoy the time I spend chatting with him and getting caught up every once in a blue moon.

My quote was from around 2004 and the reason I didn't follow up was the shop that turned me on to Della Santa was the Bike Nook in San Francisco and they carried Della Santa frames and had one in stock (NOS) that fit me for $800. I ended up selling the frame on this forum in 2010 because the older I got the shorter the TT and the longer the HT needed to get.

[54ny77]

I know the Bike Nook very well (I lived in the Sunset District for awhile). Len built me a set of wheels that lasted a millenia. Well, about a decade, from the early 90's to my earliest days living in NYC and riding on those lovely city streets. If I recall, not once did they ever go outta true. It was unbelievable.

At this point my brain is fuzzy on the details, but I think he boxed and shipped my then-bike (an old Colnago) from SF to NYC when I eventually moved there.

A buddy of mine from college had a Della Santa and introduced me to Bike Nook and Len. Those various frames stored up on high near the ceilings....priceless.

Originally Posted by bobswire

My quote was from around 2004 and the reason I didn't follow up was the shop that turned me on to Della Santa was the Bike Nook in San Francisco and they carried Della Santa frames and had one in stock (NOS) that fit me for $800. I ended up selling the frame on this forum in 2010 because the older I got the shorter the TT and the longer the HT needed to get.

[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by 54ny77

This is 100% spot on.

Perfect example: I've had a minor deposit on with Della Santa for quite a few years now, and the holdup for completion is entirely on me. I've just keep forgetting and/or have been slacking about getting my info over to him. There is no rush (I don't need the bike), although I probably need to get on it in case he thinks about hanging up the torch soon.

Not once has he ever called me asking me for $. But we've talked several times just shooting the s&^%!, and those are some of the best bike-related and interpersonal conversations ever. He's such a class act.

There are plenty of class acts in the framebuilding world. It's too bad a handful of idiots/scammers/dreamers who burn customers sully the reputation of the industry.

Go see him in person. He's a delight.

And to David Kirk's point, Roland was more or less the complete antithesis of what's been unfortunately recounted by the OP.

Roland didn't even take a deposit from me. Told me to send him a check once the bike arrived with the invoice. Maybe I was charming on the phone, who knows. But the bike arrived nearly to the day he expected it would get there, not "you'll have it in May" and it arrived in May. More "oh, it should be there May 3" and it was there maybe May 5.

There are a ton of stand-up guys like Roland building stuff these days.

[Bob Ross]

Originally Posted by David Kirk

When was the last time you heard anything like this about Crumpton, or Strong, or Ellis or etc....? Do any of these guys ask for money and disappear? Nope.

I'll admit, I'm not entirely sure what The Framebuilder's Collective does, but every time I read a thread like this I thank my lucky stars that the only guys I've given my money to were members of that esteemed group, and I tell myself I will only ever do future business with those guys. It's like the Good Housekeeping Seal-Of-Approval for framebuilders!