Way OT: PBS Vietnam Series

[jimcav]

Originally Posted by Climb01742

Another book that gives a soldier's eye view of Vietnam is 'The Things They Carried' by Tim O'Brien. It's also, simply, one of the great American books ever written.

I read it to my boys when they were too young, but just love the book.

I will say one of my toughest college papers ever was a paper I did for a low intensity conflict class. I did it on " A Bright and Shining Lie", which was a dense read. I expected the Burns series to be far more blisteringly critical, and maybe expose something more; but it is well done and I thought using the extremely personal vignettes was a good move--painful to see those families. I do disagree with the segment where the guy said he was the last generation to believe their government told the truth. My wife often gets annoyed about how cynical I am, and tends to blame it on my 24 years in active duty. But my dad served in Korea, and then worked for the Army to include working with some of the "men who stare at goats" types and the Monroe Institute, and listening to what happened over the years, well, I was cynical before I joined (it was the best means to an end, education, as I saw it). Certainly my dad and those he served with didn't believe "the gov't" as they had as boys during WWII.

[bigman]

The documentary is so well done, its amazing, sad, horrific and so disturbing but keeps me glued to the program.
I was just in Vietnam a few weeks ago, and my limited interaction with the people left me with the view that these are truly the sweetest group of people I have ever met.
And by the way they do not call this the Vietnam War, they call it the American War.

[Jgrooms]

Originally Posted by berserk87

I am a huge military history buff. This has been an informative series and I've learned a few things.

I didn't realize that Nixon reached out to the South Vietnamese government, as a presidential candidate, to have them withdraw from the pending Paris peace talks that had been facilitated by the Johnson administration. The documentary says that he did so by promising them a better deal at the talks via his administration after he was elected. To double down on the looniness, the Johnson administration had learned of this via covert surveillance and could do nothing about it, lest they tip their hand that they got the info in an unethical manner.

The soundtrack to the series is OK but at times I feel like I am watching "Forrest Gump" again. Last night's episode had a Beatles tune playing during the first moments, and seemed like the music was competing for supremacy with the narrative. I wish that the music video aspect were a bit more subdued. The subject matter does not need to be augmented by music as much as it is, in my opinion.

I just read a great book called "Hue 1968" by Mark Bowden. It was a fascinating read. Bowden's thesis is that after Tet, and Hue, particularly, the American people ceased to trust their government in the same way.

Intelligence gathered by monitoring SVN would hardly be unethical. To not do so, in fact, would be criminal. Each successive regime in Saigon had one goal, and it was not winning the war. It was simply to stay in power. A peace plan with a coalition government would be an end to the regime.

What was criminal is that a US citizen (Chennault) would conspire with the SVN to sabotage peace talks to prolong the war.

Nixon’s people were swept up in this by their contact w Chennault.

The reasons for LBJ not going public are complex. Did he want to cause a constitutional crisis in the days before & the weeks after to dispute the election? That’s pretty big stuff. And he didn’t have smoking gun legal proof that Nixon knew. Sound familiar?

And it could have caused Thiue’s government to collapse. Further undermining the combat ops. This is 68, with NV launching successive large scale attacks. Its a **** storm.

I thought how the doc dealt with this was well done. The records that draw all the pieces together have only come to light in the last decade. These prove that Nixon & Kissinger, through Haldeman, were engaged in treason. As well they screwed Chennault, even though she handed him the presidency. Its sobering to realize that it took 40 years to piece it all together.




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[William]

I've read a lot of books and seen quite a few documentaries about the conflict. One of those things that I've always found very interesting. Probably because I have a lot of memories as a kid in the early 70's living near Ft. Lewis in Wa. I was always seeing a lot of GI's, being able to go onto the base with a neighbor who's dad had access, as well as riding bikes on parts of the base we could access through breaches in the fencing and finding spent LAW tubes with sights on them.

After watching a few episodes so far I'm seeing a lot I already knew as some things I didn't. Very good so far and I'll probably binge watch the rest of it. Two books that come to mind to me are "NAM" by Mark Baker, and "Body Of Secrets" by James Bamford.

"NAM" is one I first read in HS and I re-read every few years. First hand accounts by the people who were there. It is broken into five different segments: When they left the US the enlisting or draft, arriving in Country, Baptism of fire, combat, and then what it was like coming home. I've always found it a pretty powerful read.

The section of "Body of Secrets" covering the Vietnam conflict was enlightening and sad not only outlining the intelligence failures, but successes that were not heeded or acted upon by those in positions of power.







William

[berserk87]

Originally Posted by Jgrooms

Intelligence gathered by monitoring SVN would hardly be unethical. To not do so, in fact, would be criminal. Each successive regime in Saigon had one goal, and it was not winning the war. It was simply to stay in power. A peace plan with a coalition government would be an end to the regime.
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I may have to re-watch the episode. My takeaway was that one source of intel was from the CIA, and that Nixon was implicated by this, in Johnson's view. The slippery slope was whether it would appear that Johnson had surveilled Nixon, I thought. Again, I'll have to check into it. My recall may be hazy, and it's a part of the war with which I am unfamiliar.

[Jgrooms]

^ While Burn’s & team give a good quick overview, one could devote an entire eps to this alone. Yes, the main source was CIA monitoring of Saigon.

Imo, it wouldn’t be unethical to receive intel pertinent to his negotiations for peace. Now if he called up Hoover & asked the FBI to surveil, that’s different. Of course Hoover was doing that anyway, but thats another story.

My take is that if LBJ had a smoking gun on Nixon, Humphrey would be president. And possibly the war draws down.

Nixon biographer-
http://www.politico.com/magazine/sto...lection-215461


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[marsh]

Riveting and disturbing. Might I also recommend Errol Morris's Fog Of War,
a deep dive into the life of Robert McNamara:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fog_of_War

[palincss]

Originally Posted by 54ny77

Trent Reznor is doing the music, per one of the credits I saw after an episode a few days ago.

Some of the original music. Silkroad with Yo-Yo Ma as well. And of course there are the songs. http://www.pbs.org/kenburns/the-viet...ndtrack-notes/

[fiamme red]

I recently re-watched Hearts and Minds (available from the Criterion Collection). It's still a powerful anti-war propaganda film after all these years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcE6CdR60NY

[wc1934]

Originally Posted by berserk87

I am a huge military history buff. This has been an informative series and I've learned a few things.

I didn't realize that Nixon reached out to the South Vietnamese government, as a presidential candidate, to have them withdraw from the pending Paris peace talks that had been facilitated by the Johnson administration. The documentary says that he did so by promising them a better deal at the talks via his administration after he was elected. To double down on the looniness, the Johnson administration had learned of this via covert surveillance and could do nothing about it, lest they tip their hand that they got the info in an unethical manner.

.

Tricky Dick delays the peace talks thus more die. One of the many reasons I despise him.

[Climb01742]

I've recorded all the episodes so far. I'm watching them in small chunks. I find I can't watch it for too long at a time. It's brilliantly done, but it's heartbreaking and angering. I missed the draft by one year. So much of my high school years were shadowed by the war, the draft and whether we'd be drafted to die for nothing. Over the years, I've met vets of the war whose lives were changed forever, not for the good. So much loss for such f'ed up reasons.

The draft made the war 'real' for just about every kid once college-deferments were cut back dramatically. Which made us all think deeply and personally about war. Which was both horrifying and good for an 18-year-old. I often think, how would our wars today be different if we had a draft, not a volunteer military? 'Nam was every family's 'problem'. Today?

[William]

Originally Posted by Climb01742

Over the years, I've met vets of the war whose lives were changed forever, not for the good. So much loss for such f'ed up reasons.

Because of where we lived at one point in my childhood we had lots of interactions with GI's coming back from and going to the conflict as well as their families. Many emotions I can remember from the time even though I was a kid. Back in the 90's I used to do a lot of private instruction with one of my instructors and a fellow student at my home. Both of them were Vietnam Vets, one an Army grunt, the other a Marine sniper. They never talked about it and I never asked...until one night we finished a long training session and we were having a discussion that ended up flowing toward the conflict there. Once they began to open up I just shut my mouth and listened to them talk and share their experiences. It was moving on so many levels listening to first hand experiences of what happened to them and their fellow soldiers physically and emotionally.

The draft made the war 'real' for just about every kid once college-deferments were cut back dramatically. Which made us all think deeply and personally about war. Which was both horrifying and good for an 18-year-old. I often think, how would our wars today be different if we had a draft, not a volunteer military? 'Nam was every family's 'problem'. Today?

Expanding the draft certainly made it "Real" for a wider proportion of the American populace, but as pointed out in one of the early episodes, if you had money and/or connections there were ways around it.







William

[Doug Fattic]

I’ve been watching it with interest since my age made me eligible to be drafted to fight in Vietnam. When I started college in the fall of 1965 I remember listening to a campus talk on why we should not be involved in Vietnam and at that time what was said made no sense to me. Like many Americans I trusted that if our government was involved our leaders must have studied the situation carefully and known it was the right thing to do. That sure changed! This loss of trust in our government by the general population was one of the results of this war. As time went on I certainly did not want to be forced against my will (because of the draft) in going over to fight what seemed to be a war with no end in sight and no clear way to win it. I assumed the communist governments of North Vietnam and China could send an endless supply of fighters to the south with little or no concern about how many men they lost. It seemed totally hopeless to me at the time. Eventually that became obvious to almost everyone.

I especially hated the idea of being forced into a job that required me to kill other people. No amount of training would have been enough to convince me that was okay. In September of 1969 I got my notice to get my physical in Detroit in preparation to join the army. I was taking a 5th year of college to get my Michigan state teaching certification. Part of my motive for a career in education was because the government deferred teachers from the draft. However the government only allowed for 4 years of college deferment so I was now eligible to have to go into the army. Because of luck or divine providence or what I thought were clever responses during the physical I didn’t pass. I was elated. That could have been a terrible day leading to many terrible days.

I remember a conversation I had in college whether anybody knew anyone that wanted to be in the army. Nobody could think of anybody. Remember we were the ones required (not asked or volunteered) to go over and kill people in a strange foreign country. At that time you could be drafted when you were 18 but were not qualified to vote until you were 21. Small wonder that there were a lot of campus protests against the war. Every single person I know that was drafted and sent to Vietnam is still messed up in some way today (some of them didn’t make it back). This is why I study carefully how to vote in every election. I vote for those that seem to have good judgement and against those that appear to run because it serves their own interests rather than what is best for all Americans.

[Climb01742]

'Apocalypse Now' opened in August, 1979. I was working in NYC. A friend at work was a Vietnam vet. We both wanted to see the film as soon as it opened. In NYC, it opened at the Ziegfeld Theatre. At the time, the Ziegfeld had the best sound system of any movie theatre in the city. I mean really good. How good? During scenes in the film where helicopters flew over head, we ducked because you swore you heard 'copters behind you then over you. To see that film in a theatre with an incredible sound system was quite an experience. My friend brought 3 of his friends with us. They were vets too. Afterwards, we went to a bar. His friends were quiet for awhile. I was blown away and I'm sure talking too much. Then one of his friends said, real quietly, 'It was worse.' I spent the rest of the night listening. Turns out my friend and his buddies were all LRRPs in Vietnam. Man, some s**t went down when you were a LRRP. I'll never forget that night or those guys. Respect.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by William

Because of where we lived at one point in my childhood we had lots of interactions with GI's coming back from and going to the conflict as well as their families. Many emotions I can remember from the time even though I was a kid. Back in the 90's I used to do a lot of private instruction with one of my instructors and a fellow student at my home. Both of them were Vietnam Vets, one an Army grunt, the other a Marine sniper. They never talked about it and I never asked...until one night we finished a long training session and we were having a discussion that ended up flowing toward the conflict there. Once they began to open up I just shut my mouth and listened to them talk and share their experiences. It was moving on so many levels listening to first hand experiences of what happened to them and their fellow soldiers physically and emotionally.




Expanding the draft certainly made it "Real" for a wider proportion of the American populace, but as pointed out in one of the early episodes, if you had money and/or connections there were ways around it.







William

Yup, like a sore foot.....