Rear disc wheel question

[deluz]

Are rear disc wheels normally dishless?
The wheel on my Wife’s Cannondale is cracking nipples because of the crap aluminum internal nipples they used. The nipples are frozen so I can’t even save the spokes and have to buy new ones.
The spokes are straight pull and measuring 298mm on both sides.
I am guessing these were built on a machine and that is why they used those nipples.

[prototoast]

What is her bike model? Some Cannondale models use an offset rear rim. Others use a normal centered rim.

[deluz]

It is an older model Synapse. rim definitely looks centered to me.
It is a 35mm deep carbon rim.

[yinzerniner]

Originally Posted by deluz

Are rear disc wheels normally dishless?
The wheel on my Wife’s Cannondale is cracking nipples because of the crap aluminum internal nipples they used. The nipples are frozen so I can’t even save the spokes and have to buy new ones.
The spokes are straight pull and measuring 298mm on both sides.
I am guessing these were built on a machine and that is why they used those nipples.

If by "dishless" you mean the center of the hub is centered on the rim, then yes generally rear disc wheels are. However, depending on the flange layout, hub geo, and rear wheel hole offset it's possible to have just one size spoke even though the flange centers are in very different positions.

If these are the 35mm cannondale carbon wheels with "stans" tubeless tech sticker then you might be better served just biting the bullet and grabbing another rear wheel. The hubs on those were very cheap OEM made by Formula, and they were often built by machine and somewhat badly. If you want to save the rim, you'd be better served just getting a Bitex or other good quality/low cost hub and having it rebuilt.

[deluz]

Originally Posted by yinzerniner

If by "dishless" you mean the center of the hub is centered on the rim, then yes generally rear disc wheels are. However, depending on the flange layout, hub geo, and rear wheel hole offset it's possible to have just one size spoke even though the flange centers are in very different positions.

If these are the 35mm cannondale carbon wheels with "stans" tubeless tech sticker then you might be better served just biting the bullet and grabbing another rear wheel. The hubs on those were very cheap OEM made by Formula, and they were often built by machine and somewhat badly. If you want to save the rim, you'd be better served just getting a Bitex or other good quality/low cost hub and having it rebuilt.

Thanks that is what I needed to know. Yes they are exactly those wheels.
Never noticed a problem with the hubs but I just checked and the bearings feel rough. Not sure if they are replaceable but my wife weighs 120 lbs and did not ride the bike that many miles so they should not be worn out. I am tempted to just order a wheel from BTLOS. Her bike will be out of commission for awhile but we have a tandem we can ride. I am not a big fan Bitex, would rather go for WI if I was to do a rebuild. The internal nipples suck so I would rather not reuse the rim.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by deluz

Thanks that is what I needed to know. Yes they are exactly those wheels.
Never noticed a problem with the hubs but I just checked and the bearings feel rough. Not sure if they are replaceable but my wife weighs 120 lbs and did not ride the bike that many miles so they should not be worn out. I am tempted to just order a wheel from BTLOS. Her bike will be out of commission for awhile but we have a tandem we can ride. I am not a big fan Bitex, would rather go for WI if I was to do a rebuild. The internal nipples suck so I would rather not reuse the rim.

Not surprised an OEM wheel is junque. Yes, the BTLOS that they make are really good wheels, very well made and many, many options.

As you mentioned, hidden nipples do nothing for the wheel, performance-wise but are a PITA to work on. WI are really good hubs but don't discount BITEX. Great hubs, very well made and easy to service...and they come in many colors...BUT, I'd just ditch the whole rear wheel and either order something or have somebody build you something..

If you don't have a wheel builder around, give me a shout and I can design and build something for your wife. Or something from BTLOS..

[deluz]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

Not surprised an OEM wheel is junque. Yes, the BTLOS that they make are really good wheels, very well made and many, many options.

As you mentioned, hidden nipples do nothing for the wheel, performance-wise but are a PITA to work on. WI are really good hubs but don't discount BITEX. Great hubs, very well made and easy to service...and they come in many colors...BUT, I'd just ditch the whole rear wheel and either order something or have somebody build you something..

If you don't have a wheel builder around, give me a shout and I can design and build something for your wife. Or something from BTLOS..

I am a wheel builder and like doing it, but I think its cheaper just to order a built wheelset from BTLOS and I can adjust the tension if needed. I agree Bitex are ok hubs. I have a pair a wheels with them. I just think they have a cheap look to them when compared to hubs like WI. I have a pair a wheels with them.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by yinzerniner

If by "dishless" you mean the center of the hub is centered on the rim, then yes generally rear disc wheels are.

I'm not sure that's the case. A typical rear wheel has a spacing of 50 - 55mm between flanges, and the right (DS) flange positioned 48 - 50mm from the end of the axle. In order to make a dishless wheel, the axle width would have to be about 150mm or more between dropout faces (assuming symmetric rim and symmetric rear triangle). While that's the standard for MTB Super Boost, most bikes have narrower axle spacing (the standard for disc brake road and gravel bikes is 135mm between dropouts)*.

The exception here is for bikes with asymmetric rear triangles. Cannondale has used asymmetric rear triangles on some bikes, which they call Asymmetric Integration (AI). This offset the rear triangle to the right by 6mm. That's enough to make most disc brake rear wheels dishless or nearly dishless. I didn't think Cannondale used AI on many drop-bar bikes, but maybe the OP's Synapse is one of them.


*Also note here that many Fat Bikes and tandems use wide axles, and also can be made dishless.

[deluz]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

I'm not sure that's the case. A typical rear wheel has a spacing of 50 - 55mm between flanges, and the right (DS) flange positioned 48 - 50mm from the end of the axle. In order to make a dishless wheel, the axle width would have to be about 150mm or more between dropout faces (assuming symmetric rim and symmetric rear triangle). While that's the standard for MTB Super Boost, most bikes have narrower axle spacing (the standard for disc brake road and gravel bikes is 135mm between dropouts)*.

The exception here is for bikes with asymmetric rear triangles. Cannondale has used asymmetric rear triangles on some bikes, which they call Asymmetric Integration (AI). This offset the rear triangle to the right by 6mm. That's enough to make most disc brake rear wheels dishless or nearly dishless. I didn't think Cannondale used AI on many drop-bar bikes, but maybe the OP's Synapse is one of them.


*Also note here that many Fat Bikes and tandems use wide axles, and also can be made dishless.

I don't think her Synapse has AI. Looking again I think the wheel is dished. What was throwing me off is the spoke lengths are all the same but I think the hub has different diameters on the DS, NDS which allows using the same length spoke on both sides. Since I already had rebuilt the front wheel with new spokes and Sapim internal brass nipples I think it makes sense to keep that wheel and rebuild the rear wheel reusing the rim and with a better hub as I hear the hub is garbage and Sapim internal nipples. I don't like internal nipples but IME spokes don't break on a properly built wheel.
Looking at this DT Swiss 350 hub:

https://www.coloradocyclist.com/dt-s...QaAhmmEALw_wcB

It will end up costing around $300 vs $800 for a complete new wheelset.

[yinzerniner]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

I'm not sure that's the case. A typical rear wheel has a spacing of 50 - 55mm between flanges, and the right (DS) flange positioned 48 - 50mm from the end of the axle. In order to make a dishless wheel, the axle width would have to be about 150mm or more between dropout faces (assuming symmetric rim and symmetric rear triangle). While that's the standard for MTB Super Boost, most bikes have narrower axle spacing (the standard for disc brake road and gravel bikes is 135mm between dropouts)*.

The exception here is for bikes with asymmetric rear triangles. Cannondale has used asymmetric rear triangles on some bikes, which they call Asymmetric Integration (AI). This offset the rear triangle to the right by 6mm. That's enough to make most disc brake rear wheels dishless or nearly dishless. I didn't think Cannondale used AI on many drop-bar bikes, but maybe the OP's Synapse is one of them.


*Also note here that many Fat Bikes and tandems use wide axles, and also can be made dishless.

Think some original phrasing may have been off a bit. By "center of the hub" I meant the center of the total hub width between the dropouts, not the center of the two flanges. And by "dishless" I'm guessing the OP meant that the center of the hub (as I described above) is not offset to either the DS or the NDS of the rim.

For 135mm qr hubs the center of the rim should be at the center of the hub when measuring between the dropout ends, so 67.5mm to the NDS dropout and 67.5mm to the DS dropout.

However flange distances and locations vary from hub to hub, so saying the center of the rear hub is the centerpoint between the flanges is not the correct terminolgy IMO.

The "center" of the hub for these WI and DT hub are the exact same, but as you can see their flange distances and offets are different:
https://www.kstoerz.com/freespoke/hub/589

https://www.kstoerz.com/freespoke/hub/211


To the OP, there's really no reason to spend $300 on just a hub, for that price you can surely get a whole carbon wheel with a decent hub built. Purchasing a used DT350 or 240 and lacing it to a nice carbon rim would be a good alternative since you're against Bitex for some reason.