Training: The least amount required.

[shovelhd]

Originally Posted by stephenmarklay

For sure some of this is mental. When I was dropped, I bet I could have stayed on if I really hammered it. But hammering it too hard may have exhausted me to the point I was done. So that mental aspect of not knowing my breaking point did not help. As it turns out I saved enough so that nearing the end it was not me needing to soft pedal.

I have this weird thing that the deeper I go the more my brain turns off. I usually manage to push at the end a little harder than some others which has been an asset in the past. Early on I stifle myself, worried I will blow.

Anyway, the was a lesson. I may take a little time to find some form but this has been very helpful.

This is a very common thing for newer racers to do. Don't beat yourself up about it, learn from it. When you're at 95% and feel yourself falling off the back, you've got to go 110%-120% to get back on. This is your race finish right there. Go as hard as you can and do not even think about the price you will pay later. The object is to get to the finish with your group and let the rest play out. If you finish last in the group, you've lost nothing. If you place higher, you've gained.

I know that this is not a race but the same principles apply.

[carpediemracing]

Shovel's response prompted some more thinking on my part.

If you're not sheltered super well at the beginning you're burning reserves early on. When a rider feels strong they get careless and burn a lot of gas. I see this a lot at races, me included. Later, as I am suffering on a wheel, I mentally kick myself for making even the one or two efforts I made early in the race.

The trick is to ride in the first minute like it's the 4th hour of the ride. You can't ever turn that off, you have to be sheltered 1000% or be pulling. Any time you're not pulling you have to be deep in shelter.

There are a number of situations in group rides where it's easy to get careless. Pulling away from a stop. Descents. Cresting a hill. Going through a corner. Slight rise after a flat bit. Slight descent after a flat bit. Really any slight terrain changes.

In every single one of those situations you need to be 1000% vigilant and stay in shelter, stay on the wheels. When you let that 5 or 8 or 10 foot gap go you're giving away 100-200-300w to get back on. A 30-40 foot gap, easy to let go on a descent, could mean a massive effort to close. Be careless like that a bunch of times and you just blew the reserves you need to stay with the group another 50 meters on that hill 3.5 hours into the ride. Do it more and you just threw away the last hour of your ride. Etc.

The numbers you're describing, 250-300w, that's significant power. I can't avg 250w for an hour at all, and in fact never hit that number for 20 min (which would give me a 237w FTP). In Cat 3 races I'll avg 160-200w, and at 200w I'm so cooked I usually can't sprint. I'm not light (currently 170 lbs, typically 170-180 lbs, lightest recent weight 158 lbs in 2010, 5'6-1/2", always over 13% body fat and usually closer to 18-20% BF). At 250-300w you should be able to hang with a pretty tough Cat 2-3 ride. If you're not riding with Cat 2-3s and you're not significantly overweight then it seems that you might be riding inefficiently.

[stephenmarklay]

Originally Posted by carpediemracing

Shovel's response prompted some more thinking on my part.

If you're not sheltered super well at the beginning you're burning reserves early on. When a rider feels strong they get careless and burn a lot of gas. I see this a lot at races, me included. Later, as I am suffering on a wheel, I mentally kick myself for making even the one or two efforts I made early in the race.

The trick is to ride in the first minute like it's the 4th hour of the ride. You can't ever turn that off, you have to be sheltered 1000% or be pulling. Any time you're not pulling you have to be deep in shelter.

There are a number of situations in group rides where it's easy to get careless. Pulling away from a stop. Descents. Cresting a hill. Going through a corner. Slight rise after a flat bit. Slight descent after a flat bit. Really any slight terrain changes.

In every single one of those situations you need to be 1000% vigilant and stay in shelter, stay on the wheels. When you let that 5 or 8 or 10 foot gap go you're giving away 100-200-300w to get back on. A 30-40 foot gap, easy to let go on a descent, could mean a massive effort to close. Be careless like that a bunch of times and you just blew the reserves you need to stay with the group another 50 meters on that hill 3.5 hours into the ride. Do it more and you just threw away the last hour of your ride. Etc.

The numbers you're describing, 250-300w, that's significant power. I can't avg 250w for an hour at all, and in fact never hit that number for 20 min (which would give me a 237w FTP). In Cat 3 races I'll avg 160-200w, and at 200w I'm so cooked I usually can't sprint. I'm not light (currently 170 lbs, typically 170-180 lbs, lightest recent weight 158 lbs in 2010, 5'6-1/2", always over 13% body fat and usually closer to 18-20% BF). At 250-300w you should be able to hang with a pretty tough Cat 2-3 ride. If you're not riding with Cat 2-3s and you're not significantly overweight then it seems that you might be riding inefficiently.

Thanks and I read you loud and clear. I was trying to conserve but I had not idea what was unfolding

The story goes like this. Our group leader was our area’s #1 cat 1 rider for many years. He ran the team, trained me for a bit and still has a business training and hosting events. He actually won the Furnace Creek 508 at one point (with the 2nd fastest solo ride) so he is not new to dishing pain.

Having said that, like everyone, sometimes life keeps you busy doing other things. Well it has been a number of years but he is back in shape.

The other guy leading was a cat 2 youngster and client of guy #1

So I was not riding with ultra fast guys doing super fast training but faster than people ride for fun!

[stephenmarklay]

Originally Posted by shovelhd

This is a very common thing for newer racers to do. Don't beat yourself up about it, learn from it. When you're at 95% and feel yourself falling off the back, you've got to go 110%-120% to get back on. This is your race finish right there. Go as hard as you can and do not even think about the price you will pay later. The object is to get to the finish with your group and let the rest play out. If you finish last in the group, you've lost nothing. If you place higher, you've gained.

I know that this is not a race but the same principles apply.

Makes total sense. Thank you.

[stephenmarklay]

If nothing else this motivated me to get out and do a “not get dropped” ride. I did something that historically has worked well for my fitness. I will do that shorter ride at least each week and add some more in.

[zank]

One thing that has helped me a lot this season has been extending my sweet spot and ftp intervals past the typical 2x20. Last week was my last week of base, and two workouts were 1x40 right at ftp and 1x70 at 95% ftp average power but my NP was 5 watts over ftp. This was intentional, as the plan called for attacking the hills and then recovering at no lower than 90% ftp (sweet spot) and then back up to 95%.

I've been progressing over the course of the base period to these longer durations. It's really helped my mental toughness, and has saved me time by skipping the recovery time. I suggest giving it some thought.

[Joachim]

I conversed with the OP via PM and one thing I feel that needs to be said is that overall he has lacked enough recovery to make substantial gains. On a few days he would do two-sports-a-day workouts and if you throw in harder intensity stuff, you just don't get any adaptations. 'Gains' don't come during training, they happen during recovery. If you stress the system too often, there is no time for growth. So while everyone naturally assumes it this or that type of workout, it's actually the lack of recovery that is the biggest culprit underlying lack of performance. Once a better balance of workouts and recovery are established, then the performance will improve too. Sometimes the big picture tells the most.

[zank]

Good stuff, Joachim.

[weisan]

Joachim pal, thanks for being so generous with your time and training advice.

[stephenmarklay]

Originally Posted by zank

One thing that has helped me a lot this season has been extending my sweet spot and ftp intervals past the typical 2x20. Last week was my last week of base, and two workouts were 1x40 right at ftp and 1x70 at 95% ftp average power but my NP was 5 watts over ftp. This was intentional, as the plan called for attacking the hills and then recovering at no lower than 90% ftp (sweet spot) and then back up to 95%.

I've been progressing over the course of the base period to these longer durations. It's really helped my mental toughness, and has saved me time by skipping the recovery time. I suggest giving it some thought.

I have no doubt that would make you mentally tough! I do think increasing time is smart. Two workouts like these are a lot for me each week but I could shoot for one.

[stephenmarklay]

Originally Posted by Joachim

I conversed with the OP via PM and one thing I feel that needs to be said is that overall he has lacked enough recovery to make substantial gains. On a few days he would do two-sports-a-day workouts and if you throw in harder intensity stuff, you just don't get any adaptations. 'Gains' don't come during training, they happen during recovery. If you stress the system too often, there is no time for growth. So while everyone naturally assumes it this or that type of workout, it's actually the lack of recovery that is the biggest culprit underlying lack of performance. Once a better balance of workouts and recovery are established, then the performance will improve too. Sometimes the big picture tells the most.

For sure it is a fine line. Recovery, is always on my mind. My current schedule is pretty new and is an effort to not waste energy. My "Only the good stuff” plan. That does not mean just HIIT or the like it just means very focused outcome based training.

I had been doing to much. For instance going to the gym and workout out and the working out with friends at martial arts training since they wanted to get some time in doing that. Now I am making sure to be mindful of and combine those. I also make sure my leg training at the gym is not too often and typically more single leg drills for hip strength, so I can get the bike specific training in. But in reality my bike stuff has been next to noting.

I am going to try a super simple training plan and stick too it. But with a goal.

[zank]

Originally Posted by stephenmarklay

I have no doubt that would make you mentally tough! I do think increasing time is smart. Two workouts like these are a lot for me each week but I could shoot for one.

It was definitely a stretch, but I have a rest week this week and the plan was some overload at the end of the base period.

[stephenmarklay]

Originally Posted by zank

It was definitely a stretch, but I have a rest week this week and the plan was some overload at the end of the base period.

Yeah I figured. No doubt with some rest that was a good week.

[nobuseri]

This will be something that I will work on this next off season. Increasing the fatigue resistance. Bursts/surges, I am good, but I can't sustain as long as some stronger rider I roll with. To add, my hill climbing/recovery needs work as this is where I get dropped on races and fast group rides. Working on this by rolling with more fast group rides, and intervals at home. Longer rides on the weekend.

Lots of good info in this thread. As being a spectator, thanks for the info and suggestions.

Originally Posted by zank

One thing that has helped me a lot this season has been extending my sweet spot and ftp intervals past the typical 2x20. Last week was my last week of base, and two workouts were 1x40 right at ftp and 1x70 at 95% ftp average power but my NP was 5 watts over ftp. This was intentional, as the plan called for attacking the hills and then recovering at no lower than 90% ftp (sweet spot) and then back up to 95%.

I've been progressing over the course of the base period to these longer durations. It's really helped my mental toughness, and has saved me time by skipping the recovery time. I suggest giving it some thought.

[mtechnica]

Originally Posted by stephenmarklay

Thanks and I read you loud and clear. I was trying to conserve but I had not idea what was unfolding

The story goes like this. Our group leader was our area’s #1 cat 1 rider for many years. He ran the team, trained me for a bit and still has a business training and hosting events. He actually won the Furnace Creek 508 at one point (with the 2nd fastest solo ride) so he is not new to dishing pain.

Having said that, like everyone, sometimes life keeps you busy doing other things. Well it has been a number of years but he is back in shape.

The other guy leading was a cat 2 youngster and client of guy #1

So I was not riding with ultra fast guys doing super fast training but faster than people ride for fun!

Hmmmmmm, curious if I know who you are riding with or not? Which team?