Jumping from Steel to Carbon? Advice needed

[R3awak3n]

I just picked up a carbon bike (look 585 ultra), never had one before and been wanting to try it myself.

Currently have 2 steel bikes (one a heavy touring, do everything bike and a English which for a steel bike, is pretty light, its an excellent bike, the look has some work to do for me to like it more than the english).

I also had a spooky which was roughly 16.5 lbs at its lightest. It was a fast bike and to be pretty light. Now I am building this look and without much effort it is going to be a 15 lb bike. I am not a weight weenie usually but it is fun to get a bike as light as possible. I am of the mindset that light is better but I don't think super light really matters much. 15-20lbs is the sweet spot imo. I rather have an 18lb reliable bike than a 14lb bike with fragile components to reach some sort of weight.

I am interested to see what everyone is talking about when it comes to the look and carbon, light, stiff and comfortable.

[Clean39T]

Originally Posted by Ken Robb

3-If you see a fabulous deal on a decent used carbon bike that fits you, buy it and see how you like it. If you don't you should be able to resell it without taking a financial beating.

This is my #1 recommendation - that is, if you make the decision to try carbon. Assuming you have a "bike account" that's decently funded, picking up a carbon frame to try out, or complete bike, at a price where re-sell is easy should be no problem. Your goal should be to find something most likely on Craigslist locally that hasn't been ridden much and is cool/unique so you can either throw it on eBay for 10% more than you bought it for (to cover costs), or on here for somewhere close to what you paid for it. Just think of it as "renting" with the transaction costs being the rental price. If you buy a frameset with something like Record 10 on it, you might even be able to part it out for more than you paid for it.

More thoughts later - got a plane to catch

[Duende]

Lots of good advice here. Personally I think the used 585 route is a no brainer. I hope to pick up one myself someday. I rent carbon bikes when I go on trips sometimes. Have had great rides on specialized and treks.. nothing too exotic, but great light stiff nice handling bikes that were fun to try out.

Fwiw, steel can be very light too these days. My s3 Waterford is 16.1 pounds and I wasn't even really trying to cut weight. With a red group it could easily get to 15.

Let's us know how it goes when you figure it out.

[Clean39T]

I'm really interested in learning how geometry impacts ride characteristics for me specifically in order to narrow in on what I want to have built as my modern steel "go fast" bike. I consider everything in my stable, including my 'Guch, to be in the service of that... And I may try some carbon again on the way there (I've had some nice ones already, but none that really sang to me on the road as much as on the rack and through the lens). If I do, it'll be of the lugged or hand-laid variety...I can't unsee what I've already seen of monocoque construction issues under mass-production conditions. I don't really even want to ride a carbon fork other than an Ouzo, F1, or Alpha Q, which I've told myself are safe...


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[Pastashop]

The bike I chose to buy most recently is different from what I had chosen years ago. But only because of the experience of chasing after certain ideas and gradually realizing that what's imagined / desired does not equate to what's practiced / needed. And I think that this is a process one has to go through; it cannot / should not be avoided, unless you're exercising stoicism specifically. So, embrace the desire, if you have the means, and try it out. You may come back full circle to steel (as I did), or you may end up with something else. Blessed are those that go around in circles, for they shall be called wheels!

[exapkib]

I'm overwhelmed! I really appreciate the thoughtful responses here. You speak to many of my questions and concerns. I need to think a little longer to see if the time is right to dip a toe in the world of carbon, or just keep riding.

It's kind of funny to me that it was the weight issue that sent me down this path. I don't even know how much my bike weighs--it's never been a thing for me. Stiffness is also not really on my radar--I'm not a big guy, and can't honestly say that I know what frame flex feels like.

A lot of this, though, also goes back to the fact that I fell in love with riding bikes long before I fell in love with bikes.

I went from a Surly Cross Check (which I loved) to a CAAD9 (which I loved) to a Yamaguchi (which I love). I don't have a lot of experience riding different frames, materials, geometries, etc. All in good time, I suppose.

Again--can't thank you guys enough for putting so much wisdom and experience into this thread. What a place.

[gngroup]

Try a Colnago C40 - you should be able to find one in good shape for a reasonable price. That would be a great place to start IMO.

[mhespenheide]

I started with steel (Cromor), went to steel (531), to steel (Paramount OS), then Ti. Recently I added a Cervelo R3 into the mix, since sold, and now a Felt F1 PR into the mix. I've never seriously ridden aluminum.

Going from Cromor to 531 felt a little lighter and a little springier, but that was probably a placebo combined with the racier geometry of the bike with 531. The Paramount OS was my only road bike for about 10 years before picking up the titanium bike. The Ti, once sorted out and fitted, was an immediate improvement to my mind. The geometry of the two bikes was pretty similar, but the Ti felt like everything I liked about the steel, only moreso. Lighter, a little stiffer, a little "springier".

Eight years later, while living in Seattle, the Cervelo R3 popped up on the local Craigslist. I made the mistake of riding it with the owner's carbon wheels, which he kept. It was a similar revelation. On the single half-hour test ride, I told myself that I could feel all the superlatives that the bike magazines had been talking about for a decade or more. I bought it. It was so much "better" than the Ti bike that I foolishly kept it reserved for special rides. If it had fit larger tires, I might still own it today. But having now moved to an area universally made up with crappy, poorly-patched pavement it was a non-starter. After spotting a Felt F1 PR on the Portland OR CL and arranging to buy it, I sold the R3 thinking that the F1 PR would be the same puppy-like mixture of eagerness and controlled aggressiveness, flywheeling hard efforts with a feedback loop egging you on.

It's not.

While it fits 32's with room to spare, the F1 PR's handling is much more neutral. It's what I think of for "Italian stage race geometry". While both it and the R3 are carbon, they're very different bikes. Both are lighter than the Ti bike; climbing out of the saddle felt a little more immediately responsive on the R3 than the F1 PR.

I'm still working on the fit of the F1 PR, so I don't want to make any final statements on it. And I already know that it's an awesome bike in its own right. But it's more of a century bike that will help shepherd you over pave or lousy pavement, and give you a little margin of error when you're exhausted or your own nerves are shot.

I've got a CAAD10 frame waiting in the wings, so at some point soon I want to build that up and try it out. If I had large sums of money to throw at the idea, I'd want Argonaut or someone similar to build me a custom carbon bike to blend the best parts of all the different bikes. That's not going to happen, so I'll keep playing with secondhand frames and try out some of the notables. My personal yardstick has long been that I try to afford a bike that, conceptually, could have won the Tour ten years ago. By that measurement, the Ti bike began that way, the R3 was right on the money, and the F1 PR is a little "better" than that.

In a month or two, I should be at six bikes. Four road (carbon, ti, alu, and vintage steel), one mountain, and one 'round town. Oh, and one more road (the Paramount OS) stashed back at my parent's house. So seven. The aluminum CAAD10 will be on trial; it might not be a keeper. The Ti is likely with me for a long time yet, at least until I age out of it in a decade or so. Right now, it fits really well. The vintage steel is the first good bike I ever bought (the Cromor), way back in '87, so it's not going anywhere. Aside from sentimental reasons, it still rides great. And, bonus, it fits 700x30's!

Short answer: aside from the issue of weight, geometry and wheels have a big effect on your perceptions about a bike.

[KidWok]

To echo what others have said:
1. Play with a few carbon fiber bikes...heck...alum and ti while you're at it
2. Play with different geometries
3. Buy a Colnago C40 and/or C50...you won't be sorry
4. Have a few toys lined up all ready to ride...your body will tell you which one you like best because that's the one that will get used the most
5. Sell off the ones you don't ride
6. You'll likely end up back to where you started...riding a steel bike a lot

Tai

[cachagua]

Can you be on more than one of those stages at a time? Right now I'm 4 and 6...

Only, I can't seem to 5. What's up with that?

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by exapkib

I write this email after thirty blissful miles in the hills on my steel bike that I love--my Yamaguchi. I will thank you in advance for indulging a post full of introspective questions. I really am interested in the responses that this post elicits.

The principle question is completely subjective and rather simple: Should I buy a carbon bike (it would be my first non-metal ride). The incredibly priced BH Ultralight that sold recently in our own classifieds was what put me over the edge--once my mind committed that much to buying a lightweight carbon frame, it has been hard to walk it back from the edge.

The story begins, though, last year--I was riding the Alpine Loop with a friend, and we came to the section of the pass that was still closed to cars. I made the fateful mistake of helping to lift his bike (a Cannondale SuperSix Evo HiMod w/Carbon wheels) over the barrier immediately after lifting my own bike over said barrier. I was stunned. I have told myself the usual truths--the difference in weight (especially for the bare frame) doesn't make that big of a difference, yadda yadda yadda.

Apparently, some part of me remains unconvinced. A couple of great deals here post BH have me thinking about trying a (used, mid-grade) carbon bike just to see how it compares to my own ride.

1)How much lighter would a frame need to be to make a difference when out riding?

2)Do I really need a stiffer bike? Or is carbon supposed to be more compliant? Or is it really somehow both at the same time?

3)If I had a mid-grade carbon frame, when would I choose to ride it over the Yamaguchi?

4)How many bikes can a person ride at one time? How many bikes does a person need?

Any advice or experience would be most welcome. Thanks.

(By the way--I am not ready to sell the Yamaguchi. Not at all. That's probably the single largest thing holding me back from another purchase. Though, I have seen a few bikes go by in the classifieds that made me think seriously about proposing a temporary (six weeks or so) 'exchange' with some of the good folks looking to move their bikes here. What could possibly go wrong?)

1)it's not frame weight but ride quality. A light frame might ride like crap, a heavier, sublime. Light weight isn't an auto-better/faster riding frame.

2)Depends on the frame. All carbon frames are made different. 'Threads per inch', layup, tube diameter, method of joining..etc, etc, etc.

3)up to you after you ride and how subjectively it feels to you.

3)one and depends on you. I have 2..one for dry weather one for wet weather..both metal..BUT YMMV, depends on you.

Don't expect anything magical to happen with a carbon frame. Long test ride is required.

[froze]

If you have the money to burn on a light weight steel bike, Rodriguez makes a bike called the Outlaw (Red Lite) which is lighter than most CF bikes on the market, with SRAM Red weighs only 13.5 pounds, but it will also lighten your wallet by $10,999. The interesting thing is that there are no reports on the internet about these frames failing and this bike has been around for awhile. I've always wanted to ride one of those, but I can't justify spending that much money for any bike, especially when you think that you can buy a number of motorcycles like the Ducati Scrambler Icon, or the Kawasaki KLR 650, or the Harley Davidson Iron 883, all for under $9000 and all those bikes have a great deal more technology than a bicycle.

[Bob Ross]

Originally Posted by Clancy

Most carbon bikes do not mute the small vibrations at all like steel/Ti.

Interestingly, I have exactly the opposite experience: It feels to me like most carbon frames mute the small vibrations far better than steel (haven't ridden enough Ti to have an opinion). Whereas steel to me has an electric buzz when riding over slightly course chipseal, carbon mutes those microvibrations to the point of either (best case) feeling like you're floating on air, hovering an inch above the pavement, or (worst case) feeling so muted as to be dead.

It's the big bumps where I feel carbon loses its ability to mute vibrations. That's where I feel steel does its springy, vibration-absorbing thing; and that's where carbon tends to go SPLAT.

But I think our divergent experiences may just be an indication of how ascribing any qualities to the materials independent of design/execution is missing the point.


To the OP: I would love a sub-15lb bike...because I have to lift my bikes up high to hang them on the wall when I put them away. But when I'm riding them? even when climbing I just don't notice the ~2lb difference in weight between my carbon bike and my steel bike.

[shovelhd]

Originally Posted by mhespenheide

While it fits 32's with room to spare, the F1 PR's handling is much more neutral. It's what I think of for "Italian stage race geometry". While both it and the R3 are carbon, they're very different bikes. Both are lighter than the Ti bike; climbing out of the saddle felt a little more immediately responsive on the R3 than the F1 PR.

I'm still working on the fit of the F1 PR, so I don't want to make any final statements on it. And I already know that it's an awesome bike in its own right. But it's more of a century bike that will help shepherd you over pave or lousy pavement, and give you a little margin of error when you're exhausted or your own nerves are shot.

Just FYI from a Felt fan and owner, the F1 PR geometry is completely different than the F1 geometry, which is their non-aero road race frame and the equivalent to my Fc. The F1 PR has slack head and seat tubes, a longer top tube, chainstays, you get the picture. It's a stretched out, laid back comfort frame, not a road race frame. The R3 should be compared to the F1.

[uber]

I think there's is so much variation in the way carbon and steel frames are made it could be tough to generalize. A C60 feels very different from an F8 Pinarello. A Cervelo R3SL is very different from the Look 585 mentioned above. One friend commented that your new bike will be "another child to love". I totally agree that fit will dominate how you will feel on a bike. I also believe that part of what appeals to us is what we get used to. No reason on earth to part with your loved steel frame. Give this carbon bike a try, but perhaps it does not represent the characteristics of all carbon frames. It is a great luxury to have more than one bike you love to ride. Enjoy the process.