"Off the shelf" 650B Road Frames (Low Trail Content)

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by goonster

(Non-MTB) 650b is that rare case of the industry reluctantly filling a long-unmet, existing demand, not a trend created by supply-side hype.

To "get it" you need to ride one. Mike might be happy to provide you with a loaner, even if you don't plan to carry them in the shop. The forum will vouch for you!

'Existing demand', well.... Yep, I'm a micro shop in the republic of boulder but I have never had anybody come in and ask about 650b, bicycles or tires. Some about MTB 650b but not road.

AND I DO carry touring bikes, fenders, racks(front and rear), etc., much more than anybody else in the republic does. I am not a 'race bike' type shop. More than few customers get touring 'stuff' from me.

I'd say that the 650b 'rando market segment is much smaller than the loaded tourer market is, and that segment is really small(touring bikes).

I sure wouldn't recommend anybody do unsupported touring on a 650b bicycle. Cut a tire in BFE, AnyState or Country, and you will probably be SOL.

[goonster]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

I'd say that the 650b 'rando market segment is much smaller than the loaded tourer market is, and that segment is really small(touring bikes).

No argument there, it is a tiny niche. But the demand was there nevertheless, even when it was just some French guys lobbying Hutchinson for a small batch of pneus.

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

I sure wouldn't recommend anybody do unsupported touring on a 650b bicycle. Cut a tire in BFE, AnyState or Country, and you will probably be SOL.

I'm doing just that next week, in a country where there is probably not a single 650b tire sitting on a retailer's shelf.

(Yes, I'll carry a spare.)

[Puget Pounder]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

No fenders on that I take it?

and for 650b in general, I guess a future separate thread as to the 650b advantages.

still don't 'get it' but I don't 'get' a lot of things 'bike' these days, I guess.

It will be getting fenders.

I understand where you are coming from. There is nothing inherently better about a 650B diameter vs a 26" IMO. If bikes with road geo were readily available in 26" with supple tires, then I would have a hard time choosing.

However, I do notice a difference between fatty 700C tires vs 650B. After 32mm the handling feels a bit more sluggish. It might be because I'm a short guy so a smaller wheel size is perfectly scaled for me.

I admit that the rush for people to turn their bikes for 650B is pretty silly. Every week I see threads about converting to 650B because they think it will make their bike faster. For me, the most compelling reason is to get the fat tire experience with quick race geo. However, it's different and fun so if people have time to kill and the $$$ to spend, that is what it's all about!

Sorry for veering this thread off course.

[R2D2]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

'Existing demand', well.... Yep, I'm a micro shop in the republic of boulder but I have never had anybody come in and ask about 650b, bicycles or tires. Some about MTB 650b but not road.

AND I DO carry touring bikes, fenders, racks(front and rear), etc., much more than anybody else in the republic does. I am not a 'race bike' type shop. More than few customers get touring 'stuff' from me.

I'd say that the 650b 'rando market segment is much smaller than the loaded tourer market is, and that segment is really small(touring bikes).

I sure wouldn't recommend anybody do unsupported touring on a 650b bicycle. Cut a tire in BFE, AnyState or Country, and you will probably be SOL.

FWIW Some of allure is a throw back to French Constructuer. The roads were rougher, sometimes gravel, and the distances long. So a big cushion of air was more conmfortable. In recent years some , Jan Heine comes ot mind, claim the tires have less rolling restistance since the contatct patch was smaller.

I've never riden one. Not for or against. Was just giving some info. I don't know anyone in my circles that rides 650B. On Brevets you can accept help from other participants. But your right that with a 650B you'd be SOL as most ride 700C.

[559Rando]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

Just looking for insight here...not going to have any 650b on the floor, unless Richard at Waterford offers one, which I doubt. "Seems" like a trend to me based on one tire brand. Not sure what it offers over a well made 700c touring/all 'rounder rig.

I'd love to see more touring and all arounder 700C bikes on the market, but I'd like to see nice fat slicks tires to go with it.

There are a few brands in the 650B road ring, although Grand Bois has a strong handle on it. Pacenti even has a flyweight tire, SOMA has a Pasela-esque tire. True, all those probably are made by Panaracer. Then there's a Hutchinson 32mm, some Schwalbes. Probably some euro-only stuff.

Have you read anything from Jan Heine? Short of trying it yourself to see if you like, Jan does a nice job of relating his experience and attempts to be thorough and scientific, as possible. Here's a blog entry of his about fat 650B tires:

http://janheine.wordpress.com/2011/0...de-650b-tires/

Granted, everything has pros and cons, I had a 650B fire sale and sold 2 complete 650B specific bikes, plus my extras and regret it. I'm looking forward to taking delivery of Gravelbike's rSogn within a week or two and riding some nice plush fat tires again.

[bigmatt]

Originally Posted by 559Rando

There are a few brands in the 650B road ring, although Grand Bois has a strong handle on it. Pacenti even has a flyweight tire, SOMA has a Pasela-esque tire. True, all ARE made by Panaracer.

Fixed that for ya. There are a few different camps in the 650b market at least to me it seems. The off road 650b market makes sense for people too short for 29ers or claim 29ers handle like a limo. I for one was a early adopter of 29ers when only a handful of tires existed and you need a small boutique frame to ride them. After my first few rides on my first 29er I sold both of my 26" mtn bikes within two weeks, and I have never looked back. For me I will always ride off road on a 29er, but I am also 6'6" so they work perfect for me.

The second 650b market is the former road frame conversions to 650b. You have this nice 700c road bike, but it can't fit bigger tires and is rough to ride on the horrible roads and it hates to see dirt roads. 650b conversions with some long reach brakes can give some new life to an old road bike that didn't see use and make it much more useful.

The third group is this threads topic: the low trail/rando type market which of course is very small. You aren't going to see any big brand jump on board with this type of bike because they are in to make money. They might say it is all about the bike, but it isn't. They are in business to make money. Bikes/models that don't sell get dropped and replaced with something else. A 650b road bike would be a very slow seller and everyone would say why do they make this bike for a weird obscure mostly French tire size? The bikes also are a bit more labor intensive to make with all the extra braze ons that are found on this type of bike.

My 650b uses has fallen into the last two groups. I did want to give it a try so I converted a 72' Peugeot PX10 just for fun to see if I liked the big tires. I did and felt I didn't loose much (or any) speed compared to a 700c bike of the same basic build type (lugged steel and 20lbs +). I still own a couple of vintage/KOF lugged steel road bikes, ride them, and enjoy them a lot. They are fast, but not very comfortable with 23-25mm tires over bad pavement and I am limited to paved roads. When I ride one of those I have to drive somewhere and then get out and ride as I live in the sticks with a few miles of dirt roads before I hit pavement. The Px10 conversion game me some glimpses of the 650b magic so I wanted to build a built for 650b bike and build it right. I wasn't sure if I wanted to put down the money for a Boulder or BD Pelican so I opted for the cheaper Velo Orange choice. Rawland was not an option since the frames never seem to be in stock or he changes his mind on what the dimensions will be (referring to XL sizes only).

I now have over 600 miles on my Polyvalent in the last month and love it. There are a few slight things I don't like as much, but over all I don't think I have been this happy about a bike purchase and build ever. I have a decent size stable of bikes including a vintage low trail 700c Nishiki touring bike set up as a rando bike, cross, full touring bike, vintage road bikes, newer road bikes, and two 29ers. I have always picked the Polyvalent to ride.

[roydyates]

Originally Posted by goonster

No argument there, it is a tiny niche. But the demand was there nevertheless, even when it was just some French guys lobbying Hutchinson for a small batch of pneus.


I'm doing just that next week, in a country where there is probably not a single 650b tire sitting on a retailer's shelf.

(Yes, I'll carry a spare.)

Should we guess what country. My guess is ... the United States

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by roydyates

Should we guess what country. My guess is ... the United States

OBTW-Yes I DO have a pair of 650b road tires in stock....just in case.

Sacrebleu!!

[goonster]

Originally Posted by roydyates

Should we guess what country. My guess is ... the United States

Earlier this year, I walked into a bike shop and bought a Hetre they had in stock.

This was in Seattle's U district. The guy who rang me up was a little befuddled and asked what kind of bike it was going on . . .

[ptourkin]

Wasn't someone in North Carolina supposedly continuing the Kogswell P/R design as a production bike?

[559Rando]

Originally Posted by ptourkin

Wasn't someone in North Carolina supposedly continuing the Kogswell P/R design as a production bike?

That was Longleaf Cycles. I checked in with Anthony a month or so back and he said it wasn't top priority at that point. I think it'll take a while, if it happens at all.

[Michael_S]

I just finished building up a custom 650B all rounder, built by Chauncey Matthews of NM. After just a few rides I'm almost convinced to sell off my 700c road bike and buy one of the new Rawland Stag's to have another. I don't know if it's the wheel size, the bike or the Hetre tires but I'm super impressed. I had it built with a geometry similar to the rSogn, but with a flat top tube and the Pacenti PBP crown. It was designed to range from the Hetre to a 2" knobby for tires and with rack and fender mounts.

I prefer riding from my door and pavement/dirt road mixed terrain rides, and this bike/tire is the perfect combination for that kind of ride.

~mike

[559Rando]

Originally Posted by Michael_S

I just finished building up a custom 650B all rounder, built by Chauncey Matthews of NM. After just a few rides I'm almost convinced to sell off my 700c road bike and buy one of the new Rawland Stag's to have another. I don't know if it's the wheel size, the bike or the Hetre tires but I'm super impressed. I had it built with a geometry similar to the rSogn, but with a flat top tube and the Pacenti PBP crown. It was designed to range from the Hetre to a 2" knobby for tires and with rack and fender mounts.

I prefer riding from my door and pavement/dirt road mixed terrain rides, and this bike/tire is the perfect combination for that kind of ride.

~mike

Mike,

Is that the COHO you sold? Or are selling?

How would the Stag be different from your Chauncey Matthew custom? Or it might be too early to say since Sean/Rawland has been (rightfully) only dropping a few details at a time on the Stag. He's blessed/cursed with a vocal group of bike know-it-alls as owners, although he might be wise to bring some of the more prominent voices in as collaborators.

The Stags sounds like a righteous bike. I hope he keeps it in production!

Daniel

[Michael_S]

After riding the Matthews 650B I was so happy with the ride I was thinking I should sell the Coho. I need to take my time and make sure. Funny thing is that the Matthews was designed to be more all-rounder than Rando bike but it really fly's and I seem to climb in much higher gears. I need to ride both for a while before I make a decision.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/3734700...in/photostream
Mike

[Michael_S]

forgot to answer the Rawland question. The key difference is tubing, my custom is OS ( 28.6mm and 31.8) tubing. Mine is also True Temper OXPlat tubing which has a higher tensile strength than the CroMo the Stag would use. The Geometry and features are pretty close otherwise

The Stag is a lightweight Taiwan built 650B bike that is ends up similar to the Jeff Lyon bike showcased in BQ this month.

Mike