The ongoing hookless rims saga

[fa63]

Or they would probably just pump it up to 85-90 psi like they always have :-)

Kidding aside, I think Giant is probably one of the better manufacturers when it comes to hookless; I feel more confident knowing that the tire and wheel have been developed (and most likely tested) together.

Originally Posted by fourflys

so I just looked at my owner's manual.. you are correct, in this very generic manual for Giant bikes, it does not mention hookless tires.. what it does do is tell the owner to go by the information on the tire sidewall as every tire is different (it actually says that).. it also mentions if you aren't sure, ask your dealer your bought the bike from, what the best pressure for you and your bike is.

so, Giant says go by the info on the tire sidewall.. hard to argue with that.. for my Maxxis tires on my Revolt, the pressure range is from 35-60 psi. If I follow the recommendations on the tire, I am well below the margin of safety, even for hooked tires.. now I realize these are 42mm tires, so they would have lower pressures anyway. But if an owner is looking to replace the tires, they can look at the chart I linked earlier (the Giant link on their Hookless wheels), or, as the manual suggests, they can talk to their shop..

[fourflys]

Originally Posted by fa63

Or they would probably just pump it up to 85-90 psi like they always have :-)

Kidding aside, I think Giant is probably one of the better manufacturers when it comes to hookless; I feel more confident knowing that the tire and wheel have been developed (and most likely tested) together.

as long as folks follow their chart (and follow the pressure guidelines on the tire), they should really be fine.. I do wish Giant would update their chart more often though..

[Mark McM]

Vittoria claims there was a rock on the grassy knoll:

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/vit...ae-tour-crash/

So, Vittoria is claiming that De Gendt hit a rock. But they present no evidence of the existence of a rock (other than it would be convenient for them). Now, I've hit many rocks, and witnessed others hitting rocks, and while I've seen pinch flats from hitting rocks, I haven't seen a tire come off. A rock large enough to dislodge a tire would have to be large enough to be easily spotted, yet no one saw a rock where De Gendt's tire came off.

[bikeboy1]

Seems like Vittoria and Zipp are just pointing fingers in any direction but their own and everyone is within the guidelines of the Standards. I know most of us will never likely experience these issues but the Pros are seeing it happen enough to warrant going back to Tubs. Its amazing that tech as old as Tubs is still tech that the Pros consider viable. I am sure the Marketers would like to see the Tubs go by the way of the Dodo bird in order to sell us on new product but I hope the Tubs never go away.
It would be nice if the Marketers could come up with something that works as reliably as Tubs and yes I know they occasionally roll off but seems its rare that it happens anymore since we learned how to properly glue tires to carbon rims.

[Spdntrxi]

Originally Posted by bikeboy1

Seems like Vittoria and Zipp are just pointing fingers in any direction but their own and everyone is within the guidelines of the Standards. I know most of us will never likely experience these issues but the Pros are seeing it happen enough to warrant going back to Tubs. Its amazing that tech as old as Tubs is still tech that the Pros consider viable. I am sure the Marketers would like to see the Tubs go by the way of the Dodo bird in order to sell us on new product but I hope the Tubs never go away.
It would be nice if the Marketers could come up with something that works as reliably as Tubs and yes I know they occasionally roll off but seems its rare that it happens anymore since we learned how to properly glue tires to carbon rims.

are you too young to remember tubs rolling off ? and its rare because no one is using tubs anymore (not proper glue jobs)

[bikeboy1]

Haha nope I am old as I have seen the tubs roll off in a few of the Pro races but not so much in the races I participated in the past myself. The ones I have seen roll were because the rider didnt reglue the tire in the spring when they started their race season.

I suppose for the Pros it was just considered one of those things that happened once in awhile and no one give it a second thought because at the time clinchers were not an option for them.

As someone that rides tubular and wondering what was the next system to adopt, Hookless was that system I would consider. Until Tubs either become to difficult to purchase or to expensive then I will continue to run them. But I do actually hope they figure it out.

[NHAero]

Looking at the ISO chart, here's a question from the other end of the compatibility spectrum:
I have two sets of wheels bought in 2008, close-outs at Performance Bike for just over $200, Ultegra 6600 hubs, 32 spokes, Mavic Open Pro rims (obviously hooked ). One set on my Bob Jackson, the other on my wife's Salsa Casseroll. OP rim ID is 15mm, and I run 700Cx32 tires (with tubes) on both bikes. ISO chart doesn't show compatibility between 15mm ID and 32mm tires. Are we in danger?

[El Chaba]

A rolled tubular in the professional ranks=fired mechanic.

[Wunder]

Originally Posted by NHAero

Looking at the ISO chart, here's a question from the other end of the compatibility spectrum:
I have two sets of wheels bought in 2008, close-outs at Performance Bike for just over $200, Ultegra 6600 hubs, 32 spokes, Mavic Open Pro rims (obviously hooked ). One set on my Bob Jackson, the other on my wife's Salsa Casseroll. OP rim ID is 15mm, and I run 700Cx32 tires (with tubes) on both bikes. ISO chart doesn't show compatibility between 15mm ID and 32mm tires. Are we in danger?

ETRTO has revised the chart many times over the years. Here is one from maybe ten years ago that listed 32 as allowed on 15C. This one also states minimum for a 25C as 42mm whereas the new chart goes down to 30mm. So it is in flux. Your combo is safe but suboptimal. I personally run 23-28mm tires tubed on a 21C rim which is outside this chart too.

[NHAero]

Originally Posted by Wunder

ETRTO has revised the chart many times over the years. Here is one from maybe ten years ago that listed 32 as allowed on 15C. This one also states minimum for a 25C as 42mm whereas the new chart goes down to 30mm. So it is in flux. Your combo is safe but suboptimal. I personally run 23-28mm tires tubed on a 21C rim which is outside this chart too.

That chart is so far from the one in the Escape Collective article!

[Spdntrxi]

^ true but 10years is pre hookless road

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by Wunder

ETRTO has revised the chart many times over the years. Here is one from maybe ten years ago that listed 32 as allowed on 15C. This one also states minimum for a 25C as 42mm whereas the new chart goes down to 30mm. So it is in flux. Your combo is safe but suboptimal. I personally run 23-28mm tires tubed on a 21C rim which is outside this chart too.

The ETRTO charts have always been conservative, and for good reason. Also note that earlier ETRTO standards were for traditional clincher rims, which didn't have the bead shelves that modern tubeless ready rims have. When wide tubeless ready rims were introduced, many wheel makers recommended tired widths not much wider than rim inner width (on their hooked rims), with little issue. (For example, HED recommended tires as narrow as 22mm on their 21mm inner width tubeless ready rims). But now it appears ETRTO has mucked things up a bit by trying to both update their standards to reflect modern wide (tubeless ready) rims, and to unify tire width recommendations to be the same for both hooked and hookless rims. It appears that we are in a state of flux, where the wheel makers, tire makers and ETRTO aren't yet on the same page.

[NHAero]

Originally Posted by Spdntrxi

^ true but 10years is pre hookless road

My sense of this is that road rims until fairly recently were pretty narrow and people have run all sizes of tires on them without issue since they were tubed and the rims were hooked. I never heard of anyone with the type of issues we are discussing here with hookless and tubeless tech.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by NHAero

My sense of this is that road rims until fairly recently were pretty narrow and people have run all sizes of tires on them without issue since they were tubed and the rims were hooked. I never heard of anyone with the type of issues we are discussing here with hookless and tubeless tech.

This trend to wide rims seems to have exacerbated the problem and this aero crap like the "Rule of 105" and straight sidewalls that puts too wide of a tire on a rim.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by MikeD

This trend to wide rims seems to have exacerbated the problem and this aero crap like the "Rule of 105" and straight sidewalls that puts too wide of a tire on a rim.

I think you meant that the other way around (too narrow of a tire on a rim)?

A hook helps to retain a narrow, high pressure tire, and bead shelf also helps to retain a narrow, high pressure tire. When a rim has both, it can retain a tire that isn't much wider than the rim inside width. But when it only has one, it can't retain a narrow high pressure tire as well. For tires with flexible cord beads, the hook may be more important than the bead shelf. But hookless tires use flexible cord beads, but only have the bead shelf.