OT: VW cheating emissions on TDI vehicles

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by Ti Designs

Hey, it does come back to Lance...



Had the majority of you (TDI owners) spent any time cheating emissions standards, you would have guessed that VW was also cheating.



When I started tuning my car I was amazed by how stupid most of the emissions control stuff is. When you turn off the car, there's still fuel mixture left in the intake, so they put a carbon canister in the engine compartment to soak up the wasted fuel. Just one case of "don't want to put that out into the environment, better keep it with me". One could argue that all these little steps add up to a means of being more "green", but then I have to ask why everybody's personal transportation weighs 2 tons?



When they test emissions, they go by percentages. Think of an engine as an air pump, 1/2*engine displacement*RPM is your CFM output (I'm assuming you're car is a four stroke) The amount of fuel you send in and how efficient it's used is the emission they test for. (based on this, and some simple chemistry, there should have been questions about the TDI long ago). If they tested emissions based on actual mass (percentage*volume) the picture would be very different.



Not too long ago I had an argument with a Prius owner about how "green" modern hybrid cars are. I used the example of a Honda CRX HF, last made almost 25 years ago. With it's D15 motor it got an estimated 49MPG. The Prius does one better at 50MPG, but as the battery cycles that number drops into the mid 40s. Prius owners then argue that it's a hybrid so there are less emissions. WRONG!!! The combination of the Honda motor being more efficient and the Prius towing around an extra 1200 pounds makes the 25 year old car the clear winner there.



If progress is making people THINK they are being environmentally friendly, VW was simply making progress.

Pollution from gasoline vehicles is unburned hydrocarbons, nitrogen oxides, and carbon monoxide. No car flunks a smog test because it puts out too much CO2. 49 mpg on your old car is pure highway mileage, not city. The Prius engine shuts down when stopped at a light or in stop and go traffic while your Honda idles and continues polluting the air. Smog standards were much less stringent 25 years ago, and a worn engine and controls put out more pollution than when new. If you lived in the Bay Area, the BAAQMD may have tried to buy that car from you under the klunker buyback program to get it off the road.

[shovelhd]

Originally Posted by pbarry

Flawed or not, it's a ballpark idea of what TDI owners might expect when this all shakes out. VW knows exactly what the performance will be without the rigged software.

How can you say that? Did they hack the code and remove the defeat software? No. They simulated what they thought the code did. Every one of these simulations is flawed in the same way. They are based on assumptions, with the results accepted as fact.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by shovelhd

How can you say that? Did they hack the code and remove the defeat software? No. They simulated what they thought the code did. Every one of these simulations is flawed in the same way. They are based on assumptions, with the results accepted as fact.

'simulated', 'ballpark'..in fact, nobody knows yet...but we will.

[pbarry]

Originally Posted by shovelhd

How can you say that? Did they hack the code and remove the defeat software? No. They simulated what they thought the code did. Every one of these simulations is flawed in the same way. They are based on assumptions, with the results accepted as fact.

They observed measurable changes in mpg and 0-60 times by disabling the motion sensors and traction control. Results accepted as fact by whom? It's a data point during the limbo before real world results can be measured after the recall protocol is established.

I understand you might be a bit let down by unwittingly believing in what amounts to alchemy, but please don't assume others believe everything written on the interwebs.

[akelman]

Originally Posted by pbarry

I understand you might be a bit let down by unwittingly believing in what amounts to alchemy, but please don't assume others believe everything written on the interwebs.

Which "alchemy"?

[pbarry]

Originally Posted by akelman

Which "alchemy"?

Not the bike company!

[goonster]

Originally Posted by pbarry

It's a data point during the limbo before real world results can be measured after the recall protocol is established.

It's a data point that can't be placed in any sort of meaningful context.

Shovel is right. We don't know, and sometimes we should accept that, and resist the urge to project something (anything) onto that void.

[shovelhd]

Originally Posted by pbarry

They observed measurable changes in mpg and 0-60 times by disabling the motion sensors and traction control. Results accepted as fact by whom? It's a data point during the limbo before real world results can be measured after the recall protocol is established.

I understand you might be a bit let down by unwittingly believing in what amounts to alchemy, but please don't assume others believe everything written on the interwebs.

I'm under no illusions about what VW did. Bosch wrote the test mode into the base ECU code and warned VW that it should not go into production ECU's. Somebody let that happen.

What I have issue with is these organizations, three of them by my count, proclaiming that they put the test vehicle into cheat mode by some combination of disabling functions, turning on flashers, and stomping on the accelerator. They did not crack the ECU and disable the code. CR has a reputation of conducting reliable and accurate tests. Millions of people accept their results as fact. If they did not disable the cheat mode with 100% confidence, then the results that they have published are questionable. I don't see what's so hard to understand.

[druptight]

Originally Posted by shovelhd

I'm under no illusions about what VW did. Bosch wrote the test mode into the base ECU code and warned VW that it should not go into production ECU's. Somebody let that happen.

What I have issue with is these organizations, three of them by my count, proclaiming that they put the test vehicle into cheat mode by some combination of disabling functions, turning on flashers, and stomping on the accelerator. They did not crack the ECU and disable the code. CR has a reputation of conducting reliable and accurate tests. Millions of people accept their results as fact. If they did not disable the cheat mode with 100% confidence, then the results that they have published are questionable. I don't see what's so hard to understand.

I totally get what you're saying, but the video didn't say "WE DEFINITELY PUT IT IN CHEAT MODE AND HERE ARE THE RESULTS" - they said, " doing this we can drive the car on the road, in what we believe is the cheat mode."

I'm not sure anyone is claiming to have figured this out.

They also say in the video that VW isn't necessarily going to just put the cars in cheat mode to "solve" the EPA issues and that they don't believe that's what drivers should do either.

I think this is just an interesting test that *might* show what the difference is between "cheat mode" and our normal day to day driving.

[shovelhd]

Go to their site. I'm on my phone or I'd link it.

"In response to the scandal, Consumer Reports conducted new testing of 2015 and 2011 diesel vehicles in this "cheat" mode to assess fuel economy and performance. We found a noticeable decline in fuel economy in both models. Our testing also showed reduced acceleration with the 2011 model, which is equipped with a lower-tech diesel filtration system".

You tell me. Did they claim that they tested the cheat mode? I think it's pretty clear that they did.

[pbarry]

Originally Posted by goonster

It's a data point that can't be placed in any sort of meaningful context.

Shovel is right. We don't know, and sometimes we should accept that, and resist the urge to project something (anything) onto that void.

No problem with accepting the void. Read what I posted, without projecting.

[pbarry]

Originally Posted by shovelhd

Go to their site. I'm on my phone or I'd link it.

"In response to the scandal, Consumer Reports conducted new testing of 2015 and 2011 diesel vehicles in this "cheat" mode to assess fuel economy and performance. We found a noticeable decline in fuel economy in both models. Our testing also showed reduced acceleration with the 2011 model, which is equipped with a lower-tech diesel filtration system".

You tell me. Did they claim that they tested the cheat mode? I think it's pretty clear that they did.

Without accounting for personal biases or inference: How anyone could call the CR piece definitive, or surmise CR claimed to have conducted a scientific evaluation, is beyond me. You are tilting at windmills. The one you seek is based in Germany.

[shovelhd]

Okay.

[yngpunk]

Originally Posted by shovelhd

I'm under no illusions about what VW did. Bosch wrote the test mode into the base ECU code and warned VW that it should not go into production ECU's. Somebody let that happen.

What I have issue with is these organizations, three of them by my count, proclaiming that they put the test vehicle into cheat mode by some combination of disabling functions, turning on flashers, and stomping on the accelerator. They did not crack the ECU and disable the code. CR has a reputation of conducting reliable and accurate tests. Millions of people accept their results as fact. If they did not disable the cheat mode with 100% confidence, then the results that they have published are questionable. I don't see what's so hard to understand.

What they should do is hire one tuning companies that work on diesel such as Malone or Revo and have them disable the code...probably not too much of a stretch for them since they've already figured out how to crack the firewall around the ECU software and inject their own code

[ORMojo]

NYT: Volkswagen Told To Recall 2.4 Million Vehicles In Germany

By MELISSA EDDY
Last Updated: October 15, 2015
BERLIN Germany's automobile regulator on Thursday ordered Volkswagen to recall 2.4 million vehicles with diesel motors carrying software intended to manipulate emissions test results.

It is the first government-ordered recall anywhere since Volkswagen admitted the deception last month and said it affected 11 million cars worldwide. The government rejected the automaker's proposal to repair the vehicles as insufficient.

Germany's transportation minister, Alexander Dobrindt, said that the mandatory recall would begin in 2016 and would be overseen by the regulator, the Federal Motor Transport Authority, known by its German initials K.B.A.

"The K.B.A. believes that the software used in the diesel engines constitutes an illegal defeat device," Mr. Dobrindt said. "The authority has demanded that Volkswagen remove the software and take all steps necessary to ensure that the emissions regulations are met."

"We have the impression that Volkswagen is technically capable of carrying out the technically necessary measures," he said.

The crackdown by the German government deals a blow to the company in one of its most important markets.

Volkswagen said that it had received a response from the transport authority early on Thursday, but that it needed time to review it before commenting on it.

The German automaker has been under increasing pressure since admitting last month to American environmental authorities that it had installed a line of code in software in its diesel engines intended to manipulate the results of emissions testing.

The transport authority last week demanded that Volkswagen submit a proposal to remedy the problem. Although the company had offered fixes, the regulator instead ordered the recall.

In its proposal, Volkswagen had offered to update software on vehicles with 1.2- and 2-liter diesel engines starting next year to override the code that American environmental authorities discovered limited the amount of noxious gasses emitted during lab testing, but not during normal driving.

Mr. Dobrindt said the regulator believed the software was also active in cars in Germany and expected the company to present a fix for the 2-liter motors, with the solutions for the 1.2- and 1.6-liter engines to be presented by the end of November.

The 1.6-liter models will most likely require additional hardware to remedy the problem that would not be ready until September of next year, Mr. Dobrindt said.

This week, Volkswagen said that it would develop electric vehicles, an offering the company has been slow to adopt, despite a pledge by the German government to get one million electric cars on the road by 2020.

Barbara Hendricks, the German minister for the environment, said the government should consider scrapping a tax break for diesel engines, shifting it instead to electric vehicles to encourage more environmentally friendly technology.

Volkswagen's newly appointed chief executive, Matthias Müller, is scheduled to meet with the company's top executives on Thursday. It will be Mr. Müller's first such meeting since taking over from his predecessor, Martin Winterkorn, who stepped down last month, taking responsibility for the scandal.

On Oct. 12, Volkswagen said it would recall 1,950 diesel vehicles in China. But while China is a big automotive market for the company, it has sold very few diesels there. And there was no public indication that Beijing had ordered the recall.