Internet claims another LBS

[AngryScientist]

Originally Posted by velomonkey

Any given shop that isn't proficient in campy is not a bike shop. It's a shop that happens to sell bikes.

agree 100%, and i'll take it a step further. any "mechanic" that cant work on campy stuff is not a "mechanic" at all, he's a retail employee that can put bicycles together and change a tube here and there.

i'm laughing at the responses in this thread. this is bike stuff we're talking about, there is nothing special about campy parts. if you're a good mechanic, you "get" how stuff works and can work on ANY bike that comes through the door, period. campy, shimano, suntour, sram - doesnt matter, it's all just bike stuff, and it's all pretty damned simple, really.


the tool investment is minimal.

[fuzzalow]

Originally Posted by peanutgallery

Not like campy usa is really or setting the world on fire. I've owned more than my share of campy and have always had a soft spot but they are kind of done for a myriad of reasons, I've given up

If to buy campy, great and more power to you - but they've all but abandoned the american consumer. Be prepared to do everything yourself and buy all the tools. If a shop takes an interest in campy it is almost at their peril

All your opinion, of course. Baseless conjecture as far as "setting the world on fire" and your own personal disparagement of "kind of done for a myriad of reasons". HaHa! Well do tell...

I don't object to your attitude and dismissal of Campagnolo, that's all completely up to you and choices. But I can take issue with the lightweight of your argument to make statements like you have with nothing to back it up. Even talkin' your post as a point of conversation with no hostility or rancour, there's nuthin' there. Where's the beef?

C'mon, give a Campagnolo devotee something to work with here.

[Burnette]

Campy (and Shimano, SRAM) talk always brings feelings into the mix, but if you can put a hand over that Campy tatoo and try to think about Campagnolos' commitment and presence in the US, you have to agree that they aren't very committted to our market and sellers of their stuff can be hard to find in some states.
Campy mechanics: well, shops are want to push what they sell, right? Shimano dominates our market, right? So if what I stated above is true, it would explain a reluctance by some shops to entertain inquiries about Campy stuff, much less working with it and the possibility of having to get stuff for it.
On a ride last year that had riders that worked at three different shops, all of them bashed Campy. I have found a Campy friendly shop with a mechanic who actually has a Campy tatoo (hence the joke above), but he is a rare bird.
I might buy Campy for my next bike due to it's ergos, but I don't see Campy as a shop saver at all. With Shimano being easier to get from so many places and for cheaper, more familiar to most, it's spec'd on most bikes, if you're going for mass numbers, there's your target maker to stock/sell, Shimano.

[velomonkey]

Campy talk always devolves to market share and lack of retailing presence.

2.4%

You know who has 2.4% of the market? BMW. BMW has 2.4% of the USA auto market. Replace all this talk with campy and put in BMW and it's comical.

The fact remains that American bike shops started to get blown out in the 90s and then it got much worse in lance mania. REI is a brand held in high regard on this forum - bring a Peg, or a Serotta into an REI and wheel it in their bike area. No one is gonna care. Plenty of retailers who sell bikes would care even less. A bunch would question why you even ride a frame made out of metal.

[jlwdm]

Velomonkey, REI might be held in high regard on this forum but I don't think that is true as a bike shop. I would never consider taking a bike to REI to be worked on. REI bike areas to me just look like bike accessory sales areas with out any employees that know anything about bikes.

I was in Scottsdale the last three days and went to my three favorite bike shops there. Each one of these shops would appreciate a great steel frame. Bicycle Haus has a Merckx track bike on display.

Bicycle Haus built a brand new cool looking building and has great bikes, clothes and accessories catering to the high end. Their shop kit is by Assos. Go to the website to see the new building.

http://bicyclehaus.com/

All product is displayed in an organized and easy to find manner. Here is a shot of some of the kit.

[IMG][/IMG]

Cyclogic is not a traditional bike shop but now has a retail area. There niche is fit. Paraic is involved in teaching fit around the country and the world and the shop is all about Fit.

Airpark Bike moved into a new store three years ago and the market in the area is shifting to more mountain biking with all of the new great trails in the area. But you have to love a shop with this work area and this huge mural:

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

I have a couple of great Campy shops in DFW also.

Jeff

[Ronsonic]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

Funny, and yes, true-ish. In the shop I owned we had a 'list' of PITA customers, who did lots of above. We always talked about having a shop party, with just them, And they could stand around and think, 'gee these people are such arse-holes'..

So this guy's in the lobby on the cell phone talking to someone about how those bastards screwed up the damn upholstery on his jet, you can see the stitches in one of the seats, yeah can you believe it ....

Gets off the phone and wants to haggle with us about the price of repairing his second-tier 1970s Pioneer receiver.

We keep threatening to declare it Customer Depreciation Day. But we'd probably be out of business the next.

[cfox]

This doesn't add a whole lot, but since we are discussing it...the bike shop in question here was a "Campy" shop, and the owner, Greg, always preferred Campy on his bikes. A few years back he wrote a long term review of Record, Red, and Dura Ace. It was on their old website, not sure if it migrated to the new one. It was a pretty good read. He liked the Record best.

It's a shame they are closing, but again, not surprising to me. Greg is an incredible athlete, just not very friendly at all. Ice cold vibe in that shop. Like I and someone else mentioned, a (much) friendlier, broader scoped shop opened a few years ago, and I suspect they took a lot of business.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by Burnette

Campy (and Shimano, SRAM) talk always brings feelings into the mix, but if you can put a hand over that Campy tatoo and try to think about Campagnolos' commitment and presence in the US, you have to agree that they aren't very committted to our market and sellers of their stuff can be hard to find in some states.
Campy mechanics: well, shops are want to push what they sell, right? Shimano dominates our market, right? So if what I stated above is true, it would explain a reluctance by some shops to entertain inquiries about Campy stuff, much less working with it and the possibility of having to get stuff for it.
On a ride last year that had riders that worked at three different shops, all of them bashed Campy. I have found a Campy friendly shop with a mechanic who actually has a Campy tatoo (hence the joke above), but he is a rare bird.
I might buy Campy for my next bike due to it's ergos, but I don't see Campy as a shop saver at all. With Shimano being easier to get from so many places and for cheaper, more familiar to most, it's spec'd on most bikes, if you're going for mass numbers, there's your target maker to stock/sell, Shimano.

And there are more Toyota dealers than Audi dealers. Why bash it? Plus I think 'shops that speak Campagnolo' and 'saving a shop' are being mixed up here.

Many distributors of Campagnolo products(more than shimano in the US), easy to find stuff, easy to work on. Print and video tutorials abound. Campagnolo NA has a "ProShop" certification program. shimano/spam doesn't. Except for guys who rep distributors who sell sram, I have never seen a sram tech guy on the road. I know the Campagnolo and shimano guy well.

In unique places, you could do a Campagnolo only shop, just like you could sell only Ducatis or Aprillas. BUT, regardless of whether the shop needs to be 'saved', a 'full service bike shop', in an area that has an active bicycle scene, ought to be able to have, and service Campagnolo along with shimano and spam.

But bike shops that 'bash' Campagnolo mostly don't know it, see it, work on it. A local MO place does that, their employees do that wearing their shop kit, on group rides. They do that because of the pricing they get, not because the stuff is so great(it isn't, they warranty a BUNCH, but the employees get all sorts of next to nothing bro deals to use their crap, almost 'sponsored'). A lot of guys I know, even some who sport shimano, won't go there because of that. Ya know, a guy that works at a Japanese motorcycle 'superstore', probably says Italian and German motorcycles are 'finicky, expensive, hard to work on'..

Yes Campagnolo is small, wishes to stay that way, as is Rolex, Omega, Martin Guitars, put name of small, exclusive, premium product here.

If ya want to play a Yamaha guitar, fine and dandy, but that doesn't mean ones need to 'bash' Gibson(maybe a poor example, I know zero about guitars).

Mine-I would rather walk than have shimano on any of my bikes, and I detest anything sram.

[corky]

^ like


+ really how differenT is Campagnolo to work on than Shimano?.......not much different at al IMHO, it's just ignorance.....maybe the spares are harder to get but that is a different story.

[Burnette]

See, the problem here is when you romanticise a company, you are blind to the fact as to what is is, it's a company. And the funniest lines from two of you, saying Campy is akin to BMW/Audi versus Toyota is to totally get it wrong. The difference bewtween Shiamno and Campy products aren't as great as a Campyphile would hope. In fact, and as you already are aware, there is a majority of people who find Shimano to be in fact superior to Campy as well, here is the killer, a better value to boot.
It's not Ducati versus, Honda Motorcycles, it's bicycle components versus bicycle components and even people with money, belive it or not, can be discerning and value/performance driven and see Shimano in higher regard than Campy.
Could opening a Campy only store work? It already does, but only if it works for the immediate area and market around the shop they are serving. It wouldn't have saved the shop in the OPs first post, it would probably hastened it's demise. And it would'nt work in the area where I currently live.
As far as the shop guys bashing Campy, I chalk that up to lack of experience with the product and a prejudice against it for unkown reasons. It had no effect on me, but you see, Campy is fighting a giant in Shimano and a giant in it's absence in American cyclist minds and on spec bikes on bike shop floors.
To romanticise about Campy being OK with that is false, they aren't a wine maker happy with their lot, they want more of the market than they currently have. And they have made some very ugly cranks to prove it. Just as they will certainly make disc brakes to prove it. What they have done wrong is to continue to mismanage their presence American market.
You can open a bicycle shop and sell bicycle baubles and serve wine and go after the financially well off. Pray you have enough of those customers and kiss their tail good, because a slight dip in patronage and your shop is done, like so many others. Ribble, Wiggo and Chain Reaction will get your smarter customers, you will be left with the non buying talkers.
Personally, I could care less about a stuffy bike shop with over priced trinkets and attitude. And so would the majority of cyclist. I would take my bike to the Campy mech I know or drive a few miles and let SPOKE do it.
This forum is epic with hate rants against just that kind of snobbish bike shop. It's also full of stories about their demise.
You're trying to sell recreational equipment to well informed adults, there is no shame in acting like you know it and offering what they want at an affordable price. Cycling doesn't need off putting status symbol shops, it really only needs mass sellers and good independent mechanics.

[velomonkey]

Originally Posted by Burnette

And they have made some very ugly cranks to prove it.

I'm sorry, what, exactly, does a 4 bolt crank prove?

I'm not sure how the BMW analogy doesn't work. It's nearly to show market share and that one brand has more of a focus on a specific market type than the other brand with larger market share and a larger product offering for a broader customer base.

Understand this - no single shop can carry EVERY bike brand. With a shop, as with any business, your best bet is to be humble, polite and inclusive. Be knowledgeable about the products you sell, but also knowledgeable about the sport and have solid business acumen within your vertical. If a shop only sells Specialized with Shimano and carbon clinchers and someone walks into your shop with a steel bike, campy and hand built wheels there is still money to be made. Some shops see this, some don't.

Typically the ones that don't are the ones who go under.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by Burnette

See, the problem here is when you romanticise a company, you are blind to the fact as to what is is, it's a company. And the funniest lines from two of you, saying Campy is akin to BMW/Audi versus Toyota is to totally get it wrong. The difference bewtween Shiamno and Campy products aren't as great as a Campyphile would hope. In fact, and as you already are aware, there is a majority of people who find Shimano to be in fact superior to Campy as well, here is the killer, a better value to boot.
It's not Ducati versus, Honda Motorcycles, it's bicycle components versus bicycle components and even people with money, belive it or not, can be discerning and value/performance driven and see Shimano in higher regard than Campy.
Could opening a Campy only store work? It already does, but only if it works for the immediate area and market around the shop they are serving. It wouldn't have saved the shop in the OPs first post, it would probably hastened it's demise. And it would'nt work in the area where I currently live.
As far as the shop guys bashing Campy, I chalk that up to lack of experience with the product and a prejudice against it for unkown reasons. It had no effect on me, but you see, Campy is fighting a giant in Shimano and a giant in it's absence in American cyclist minds and on spec bikes on bike shop floors.
To romanticise about Campy being OK with that is false, they aren't a wine maker happy with their lot, they want more of the market than they currently have. And they have made some very ugly cranks to prove it. Just as they will certainly make disc brakes to prove it. What they have done wrong is to continue to mismanage their presence American market.
You can open a bicycle shop and sell bicycle baubles and serve wine and go after the financially well off. Pray you have enough of those customers and kiss their tail good, because a slight dip in patronage and your shop is done, like so many others. Ribble, Wiggo and Chain Reaction will get your smarter customers, you will be left with the non buying talkers.
Personally, I could care less about a stuffy bike shop with over priced trinkets and attitude. And so would the majority of cyclist. I would take my bike to the Campy mech I know or drive a few miles and let SPOKE do it.
This forum is epic with hate rants against just that kind of snobbish bike shop. It's also full of stories about their demise.
You're trying to sell recreational equipment to well informed adults, there is no shame in acting like you know it and offering what they want at an affordable price. Cycling doesn't need off putting status symbol shops, it really only needs mass sellers and good independent mechanics.

Not sure what you are angry about. Maybe you aren't.

I think it is VERY much like Honda and Ducati motorcycles. Very much like Rolex and Casio or Seiko. Campagnolo isn't 'fighting a giant'..shimano retires more debt each year than Campagnolo grosses. shimano is fighting sram, and vice versa. Campagnolo sits aside and watches.

Beauty and beholder is just that. I find the SR/Record/Chorus cranks really nice. As soon as I find a Chorus 172.5 at a good price, I buy it.

For ME, IMHO, and all that. I really admire the tradition and philosophy of Campagnolo. And as for a future bike shop, service is key, and economy of scale and yes, many, at least around here, frequent shops that cater to that rich cycling history, tradition. To paint it as 'just a business with no heart and soul, well, maybe to you it is..ok, press on.

[fuzzalow]

^^^ [re:Rose tinted glasses] None of this has anything to do with how or why Bethel LBS failed as a business concern. There is no singular talisman for how to run a successful business and if you believe that then on that simplicity you will fail.

You make your case with the presumption that Shimano's approach to their business is the archetype and singular strategy capable of delivering results. Results which you assume to be identical to each respective entity - selling more and expansion of market share. Written from the point of view that somehow Campagnolo secretly wishes it were Shimano. There are many ways to achieve what are likely to be different corporate goals between Campagnolo and Shimano that nuance and extend well beyond the oversimplification of selling more product.

I am Campagnolo only and will never change. I am neither apostolic about the brand nor do I care what any other cyclist uses. I do not see competition between cycling component brands in the way you do because I do not view the products as comparable. Ultimately, it is all good and all done in service of the ride.

[Burnette]

I'm in no way angry, I'm just a fact based life form. You have way too much emotion in it. "Tradition, heart and soul", at it's core Campy is a company with financial repsonsibilities. They got bills like everybody else and they know they can't beat Shimano, but they also know they must grow more to survive. You don't have to beat Shimanio, you do have to stay relevant. If you could sit in on a budget meeting at Campy it would probably make you cry. They are a business, they have to do better and they very well know it. They will follow every market whim and try to increase their market share, as they should.
You may feel "Honda vs Ducati", but that doesn't make it so. In fact, it's not. You could reverse that and have a good argument that way too. I say they are very close, the difference is in ergos, cost and availability. And for the masses, Shimano is killing it on the last two. And 105, Ultegra and Dura Ace aren't low class junk. I actually think the Dura Ace crank is better looking and the groupset as a whole has done well in comparos. Add in the super deals for all three groupsets and now you add value. You have to get that "class" thing out of it.
What I don't like about romanticising recreational equipment is that it makes you blind to reality, that there is in fact good products put out by other companies. In business, if you lead with your heart and live blindy, you will wind up in a high rent shop with high priced goods nobody wants and you will be broke. Again, Campy only would have hastened the demise of the shop in the Op's post.
I'll say too that Campyphilles do the company no serivce with passionate prose about them and misplaced disdain for Campy's competitors. For the majority of us that don't have "hear and soul" invested in a derailuer, it comes off as ignorant of the facts to the point of denial of what we all know to be true. Shimano has some pretty good stuff. Once you take facts out, you have nothing but close minded discourse.
I may get Campy on my next bike due to shifter operation (may not) and I won't tell anybody I have it unless they ask and I surely won't hold my nose or lift my head up to someone who has Shimano. That is just weird.
Campy lost their beauty along time ago and their component operation isn't leagues above Shimano, I'm sorry, it's just not.

[fuzzalow]

^ Spoken like one who thinks he knows. I am not being dismissive of your opinion, I am being dismissive of your certainty and the restrictive breadth of your interpretations. Almost to the edge as disingenuous, for the purpose as provocateur. Not well played to be obvious.

See you at the next stop.