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#91
05-13-2024, 08:53 AM
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But, it adds to the atmosphere. "Pros are here" just makes for a bigger, more exciting event than "just the pack-fodder", IME. Similarly, one of our big local cyclocross races used to draw Joe Dombrowski (he's semi-local). If he showed up to "race" the 1/2/3 field, that field would get a large chunk of day-of registrations once the word got out. Enough to make or break the event as whole? No. Enough to add some excitement? Yes. (and "race" is in quote because he wasn't really racing - he just showed up to be social). Same holds true for local/regional/retired pros - Jeremiah Bishop, Kerry Werner, etc - people do actually want to try and race them. Last edited by Alistair; 05-13-2024 at 08:56 AM. 
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#92
05-13-2024, 10:08 AM
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Wow, you guys really took the proletariat pack fodder comment seriously. I'm finishing up a second masters and a few of my classmates throw out big words in an attempt to look smart. I am amused by it all.
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#93
05-13-2024, 11:04 AM
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Folks here have generally been interpreting this as "the amateurs are treated the same as the pros."
What really matters is "the pros are treated the same as the amateurs." Or put more directly - "everyone is treated the same." The idea that this is somehow problematic, because it creates fairness issues for pros with racing (or instagram) careers to sustain - this is antithetical to the ethos that sustained these events early on, very much including Unbound, whose history has been wiped clean by Lifetime. "Gravel" events were created to get away from everything that pro road racing had become, to get back to a celebration of riding that everyone could participate in (or fail at). Remember that a lot of the big events trace their roots back to the late Lance era. So "lining up with the pros" isn't really about being able to catch a glimpse of Ted King at the start. It's about what the event means.
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#94
05-13-2024, 02:26 PM
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I don't think there is really anything "wrong" with any of these kinds of events.
Gravel might owe some of it's success right now to the way it's run rather than that it's actually on gravel. There are a spectrum of people riding who vary in what they value in an event and right now it is swinging a different direction than 20-30 years ago. When you did an actual race BITD you were paying with an expectation that: - There was no prizes/trophy/swag/after-party/after-meal for not getting on the podium - You likely had to volunteer to help put on a race at some point - The price would be small because there was no swag for everyone and volunteers were required - Prizes for podium finishes and/or primes were small - You were not guaranteed to be allowed to finish if you were too slow or could have caused a hazard (probably made people more aggro/try harder to avoid getting pulled) - The club/promoter had a responsibility to only allow people in the race who were in your competitive bracket - You were supposed to be guaranteed that riders from other levels/divisions would not distort your race - You had a better chance of winning your race since it was restricted to people about as competitive as you - Most races run by clubs, not commercialized - Licensing required - IMO perception is this model is more dangerous because separated fields make everyone feel like they have a chance to win and this makes everyone see red and get more competitive The other model is not really gravel, there are plenty of road events that have switched to this in recent years: - You get prizes/trophy/swag even if you DNF, you pick it up with your # before you even line up - Party/Meal after the finish - Price is high to cover the swag - Don't have to volunteer, expectation is your big entry fee takes care of things - Only a prize for Elites/Pros at the front who are running an actual race, probably nothing for anyone else - You are guaranteed to be allowed to finish unless something extreme is going on - Everyone is mixed together and different classes can effect each other at the pointy end of things and it's on the honor system - Most people have no chance at winning - Run by companies/promotors - No Licensing - IMO perception is this model is safer because the vast majority of the field knows they can't win and it calms them down and people let things go and ride more safely Right now things have just swung heavily towards the second model, gravel has exploited that, and road has kind of half-way tried to adapt towards it. I think some of this is generational. The core age group entering things right now grew up in an environment around sports that absolutely did not resemble traditional cycling racing in any way. The idea you could get pulled out for lack of performance is unexpected and a lot of people today grew up where everyone got a trophy/swag and a pizza party. There are definitely weaknesses with the current model. Maybe a lot of people never won anything in actual racing but when you did win it was way more satisfying than finishing participation style events. I don't think it actually bothered people that you weren't in the same race with the pros, cause you didn't have the same lifestyle and lack of responsibilities the pros have/had. But the pros were still there at the same races (at least local/US pros) and you had about the same chance of meeting them. I personally am ambivalent about a lot of the swag. I am totally under no illusion I "won" all that stuff, I know I just bought it. And while I like riding around showing off I completed X event I almost always don't like the brand of clothing the event chose and I wouldn't have picked that brand if I was in a store trying stuff on. So I have a drawer full of stuff that has some nice memories attached but I either don't wear it or when I do I grumble at it not fitting well or performing well. The other thing is you do 2 of these events today that's enough money to have done 10+ events in the old model. The prices are really high in a sport that already has a lot of cost issues. "Pros are at the the race" is an almost irrelevant factor IMO. The Pros were at the race in the traditional model too. You had about the same chance of getting to meet them and you had just about exactly the same chance of riding anywhere near them. But you also were guaranteed some Pro wasn't going to distort your race. When I was in my 20s I very much wanted to do the old model. In my 40s I won't touch the traditional model because there is really no room to avoid the high risk aspects and I'm at a point where I have too much responsibility to risk going to the hospital to win something < $10-20. But I would actually prefer a hybrid where the new model is run more often by clubs and all the swag and hoopla is reduced and in exchange the price is $25 or something again. Last edited by benb; 05-13-2024 at 03:05 PM.
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#95
05-13-2024, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Or maybe I'm just old and remember when the local office park crit was $25. No swag unless you won, and then it was usually a gift card to the LBS and whatever odds and ends the promoter could convince that same LBS or other sponsors to donate. I don't mind paying $100 or $200 for a longer event. I know it take more coordination, more police/EMT resources, and probably some paid staff to pull off. What I don't get is the entry fees for Lifetime events. I just have very little interest in paying $500, plus travel and lodging, to race. Not when I can do a non-name brand event for a fraction of that. Regardless, I really hate race t-shirts. I'd rather save that $10. And finisher medals are even worse - at least the shirt can go in my rag bin, the medal goes straight in the trash.
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#96
05-13-2024, 02:57 PM
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Yah I remember $10 (for the weekly crits) and $25 for road races or bigger crits.
The $500 to cover one of these lifetime events would have been basically more money than I could have possibly spent in a season, cause 20 events was basically way too much with my work schedule. I never did any Stage races but IIRC they were not $500 for a 3 day long holiday weekend stage race. I wonder how many people are doing 10+ of these big/expensive modern events in a season. The silly thing is I do really crave doing some MTB racing again. The opportunities aren't great though. But I never perceived it as being as dangerous as road/crit racing. Last edited by benb; 05-13-2024 at 03:02 PM.
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#97
05-13-2024, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
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#98
05-13-2024, 04:00 PM
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Lifetime Grand Prix and other national level gravel events are comparable to the Tour of Gila or Redlands - not local yokel weekly crits and road races.
My local crit costs the same $35 it did in 2013 but the field is 1/2 the size. Not sure entry fees are a relevant part of what is holding events back.
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#99
05-13-2024, 04:11 PM
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If we are going to compare the old model to the new model -
For the old model, the cost of the race was almost always built on covering the cost of the race, and maybe earn a few hundred to $1000 as a fund raiser for the club that put the race on. But that profit wouldn't even really cover a real wage for the volunteer hours that club members put in to hold the race. Today, for a Lifetime event, you are covering the costs of the race, an entire staff built around these events, plus a true profit margin. Sure you are paying for the swag too, but I think it is the admin and profit that is what is really driving costs up.
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#100
05-13-2024, 04:36 PM
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This is an interesting post but I'm not quite clear on what you're talking about wrt the road side, are you saying road events are moving closer to gravel? I haven't seen this locally, USAC Road, Fondo, and Gravel all seem to remain distinct.
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But I'm not sure I buy into this. Children's sports are structured for children, junior and varsity level sports are structured for teenagers and are much different. Our high school teams still split by A/B and cut those who cannot perform, same as it was 20 years ago and the 20 years before. People get pulled from actual competition for poor performance all the time in junior and varsity sports. Most people do not participate in sports as adults, and I'd wager most cyclists would be less likely than average to have participated in organized sports in high school. The first cycling generation of - everyone gets a trophy - racing cyclists was probably during the Lance boom in the early to mid-2000s. There didn't seem to be as much trouble attracting racers to USAC events, then. When I started in the late 2000s Lance's comeback was still driving decent fields. I look at the races I did then, and if they're not dead and gone, the fields are significantly smaller. 20 people in Cat 4/5 in a March race is abysmal. Other factors. The core age group at Unbound 200 appears to be 50-55 or 40-44, but overall each age bucket above 30 is very close. This seems to follow general bicycle racing trends. 
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#101
05-13-2024, 04:46 PM
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Good chart.
I wonder how much that is also driven by the money and time commitment - surely there's a correlation between "Willing and able to fly to Emporia Kansas and drop $500 to spend 20 hours pedaling" and "Empty nester, still gainfully employed, with extra funds and lots of extra time on their hands." Quote:
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#102
05-13-2024, 04:54 PM
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Kinda funny.
The older I get the more I avoid mass participation events and big crowds of people. Give me the GPS file. I'll stash some water and M&Ms in the woods somewhere and ride it with a small group of friends, thanks.
__________________
http://less-than-epic.blogspot.com/
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#103
05-13-2024, 06:30 PM
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I paid $150 to ride in South Dakota next month. 109 miles of gravel on the Mickelson Trail that includes two meals, a t-shirt, swag, and a one-day permit for the trail. It's not competitive but I'm sure some riders will take it seriously. I just want to finish and have a nice meal. We will stop at Devil's Tower on the way home and once again try to figure out how Richard Dreyfuss climbed up.
Where we live in Wyoming during the summer fits into Angry's wheelhouse. Many gravel routes in the Bighorns have gpx files available. Most start at 8K+ feet of altitude and have recommendations for bear spray and bells. The Bighorns aren't supposed to have a grizzly population, but I don't want to find the first one and not have spray.
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#104
05-14-2024, 01:02 AM
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#105
Today, 12:00 PM
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Looking at the Unbound start lists, I'm curious if the interpretation is such:
1. People don't care about actually lining up with the pros on the actual start line - so 200 attendance fell while the always-non-pro 100 and all other distances saw their attendance grow. or 2. People do care so they registered for other distances or decided not to attend at all.  I suspect the mud, and antagonistic social media attitude, contributed more to the decline of the 200 event than anything else. Quote:
This is from our local tentpole gravel event that is always well attended and sold out 7 or the last 10 runnings. The big bump in 50-59 in 2022 appears to be more from riders aging out of 40-49 and into 50-59 as it does from new racers.  Of course, we don't know how much of this is purposeful uplift towards going to Unbound (or other national level events), which more closely tracks with what you're saying - people with time/money of age to do these events would probably want to do events close to home as practice races, etc. Agreeing with you, and fleshing out the sentiment here.
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