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-   -   Land Shark Carbon? (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=90756)

Hawker 05-19-2011 08:42 AM

Land Shark Carbon?
 
I'm loving my new (new to me) Landshark built with Deccachai Zero tubing.

However, John Slawta is no longer building with steel, only carbon. Just wondering if anyone here has one of his carbon frames and how you like it?

Thanks.

bicycletricycle 05-19-2011 08:50 AM

that was unexpected

eddief 05-19-2011 08:50 AM

not meaning to drift the thread
 
have not seen his full carbon, but on a ride last week someone was riding the most simply beautiful abstractly painted bike with no decals. of course it was a landshark. actually it was steel with carbon back end and carbon fork. this paint was royal blue that looked like someone just took a small sponge with black paint and dabbed it all over the blue. maybe that's what he did. gorgeous.

fiamme red 05-19-2011 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawker
However, John Slawta is no longer building with steel, only carbon.

Where did you hear this?

eddief 05-19-2011 08:59 AM

less frames, less customers, more money?
 
custom steel = $2K, custom carbon = $4K.

pretty soon all the steel builders will be building plastic bikes, differentiation will go out the window, and the pendulum will swing back to steel. so many ways to play with lugged steel; fancy lugs, distinct tube/lug boundaries for paint creativity. but wrapped carbon sorta all starts to look the same...to me.

what do you do to differentiate yourself in carbon? should be interesting.

gone 05-19-2011 08:59 AM

Slawta still lists steel as being available on his web site but his prices/ordering page only lists carbon. I wonder if he'd still build steel if you called and asked.

Idle curiosity as I'm not in the market for another Landshark and sorry for the thread drift. I'm also curious as to any opinions from any carbon Landshark owners.

Hawker 05-19-2011 09:18 AM

Actually I've spoken to John twice in the last three weeks, the last time was yesterday. He was very outspoken that he was done with steel and ONLY going to work in carbon. In fact, he is "buying back" steel frames and will sell you a new carbon frame at approximalty half price. I balked at that and told him I really loved the ride of this bike. He told me if I loved his steel I would "really" love carbon and then went on to explain all the flexibility that carbon is giving him.

This is not meant to be a commercial, but now I'm having trouble wondering if maybe I really do need all carbon? I would be faster right?

oldpotatoe 05-19-2011 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawker
Actually I've spoken to John twice in the last three weeks, that last time was yesterday. He was very outspoken that he was done with steel and ONLY going to work in carbon. In fact, he is "buying back" steel frames and will sell you a new carbon frame at approximalty half price. I balked at that and told him I really loved the ride of this bike. He told me if I loved his steel I would "really" love carbon and then went on to explain all the flexibility that carbon is giving him.

This is not meant to be a commercial, but now I'm having trouble wondering if maybe I really do need all carbon? I would be faster right?

1/2 price carbon and he's still making money. I think it's just too bad. Steel is a wonderful material and John has made a great rep making really nice steel, now he's just pretty much like most of the other builders/frames, too bad I say.

AngryScientist 05-19-2011 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe
too bad I say.

i agree, when i think "master craftsman" with respect to bicycles, i think torches and welding rod, not epoxy.

MattTuck 05-19-2011 09:41 AM

I'll admit to knowing very little about Landshark... but my impression was that the paint was a big part of his brand.

If the people want his paint options on a carbon bike, maybe it makes sense for him to change his 'medium'. Increasing your revenue by 100% on each unit is a nice kicker too.

rugbysecondrow 05-19-2011 09:43 AM

Lets see how the bikes roll, what sort of rep they build. John seemed to do great steel work and was an artist with a different brush, why should an artist always have to paint on the same canvas?

eddief 05-19-2011 10:03 AM

maybe i should email Slawta
 
with my geo preferences and he can resell one of those beautiful buy back frames to me.

skijoring 05-19-2011 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe
1/2 price carbon and he's still making money. I think it's just too bad. Steel is a wonderful material and John has made a great rep making really nice steel, now he's just pretty much like most of the other builders/frames, too bad I say.


Respect to OP, but he will make a kickass bike regardless of material. He is not outsourcing these frames, he is making them in-house.

peace.

zap 05-19-2011 10:20 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Cool frame from a top notch builder.

dekindy 05-19-2011 10:29 AM

Landshark is the most unique brand, ATMO. He is a true artist and I find it significant that Carbon is now his material of choice. $4,000 pricing puts him in a different market segment also. Don't forget that Carl Strong is now doing carbon also. There must be a reason. Just looked at Strong pricing and his are $1,800 and $4,800 respectively.

MattTuck 05-19-2011 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dekindy
Landshark is the most unique brand, ATMO. He is a true artist and I find it significant that Carbon is now his material of choice. $4,000 pricing puts him in a different market segment also. Don't forget that Carl Strong is now doing carbon also. There must be a reason. Just looked at Strong pricing and his are $1,800 and $4,800 respectively.


The reasons are green, and have Ben Franklin on them. There's no dishonor in that, these folks are running a business, and need to feed their family... and if their customers are looking to shell out big bucks for carbon, why wouldn't you start offering it?

I'd be nervous though, as the learning process for building carbon isn't an over night thing.

Climb01742 05-19-2011 10:52 AM

given john's track record, i think he's earned a fair hearing for what he's building. band wagons don't seem like the sort of thing he jumps on.

TAW 05-19-2011 10:57 AM

Agreed.

Lifelover 05-19-2011 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MattTuck
The reasons are green, and have Ben Franklin on them. There's no dishonor in that, these folks are running a business, and need to feed their family... and if their customers are looking to shell out big bucks for carbon, why wouldn't you start offering it?

I'd be nervous though, as the learning process for building carbon isn't an over night thing.

I would not hesitate to go Carbon with him. It is not al that new. He has been offering full carbon for at least 3-5 years.

I'm pretty sure he even changed his process from the start. At first his carbon frames requried him to make a full steel frame as a mock up and then cut it up for the lugs. I think that has changed.

Even if he is switching soley for the money I wouldn't blame him. E-Richie pretty much confessed that he is intoducing max tubes/lugs only for the income. Making profit is good for buisness.

fiamme red 05-19-2011 11:02 AM

The process of building a carbon Landshark:

http://www.landsharkbicycles.com/carbon_tour.html (more on following pages)

Hawker 05-19-2011 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skijoring
Respect to OP, but he will make a kickass bike regardless of material. He is not outsourcing these frames, he is making them in-house.

peace.

I never meant to imply that these were not in-house frames. In fact, I don't think I did.

From what I've read elsewhere, I believe John has been working with carbon for a while now, getting to the point where his is apparently happy with the results. Also, while many of the pics show an extended seat tube, he informed me that you can have extended, short extended or no extension at all.

If I really wanted a new custom frame from John (or anyone else) ultimately I could find a way to come up with $2K. But $4K really would take me out of the market.

Someone else mentioned his paint jobs. Much has been said about this but it does seem that whether you love them or hate them...to some extent his paint designs may have overshadowed the quality of his building overall. The one I have is white with blue panels...and it must have killed him to paint it that way. :)

1centaur 05-19-2011 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eddief
pretty soon all the steel builders will be building plastic bikes, differentiation will go out the window, and the pendulum will swing back to steel. so many ways to play with lugged steel; fancy lugs, distinct tube/lug boundaries for paint creativity. but wrapped carbon sorta all starts to look the same...to me.

what do you do to differentiate yourself in carbon? should be interesting.

If all carbon makers used unpainted round stock tubes this would be true, but...

Tube composition differentiation - greater in CF than steel.

Tube shape differentiation - greater in CF

Tube joining - arguable, but both can have lugs and TIG is close to wrapping.

Paint canvas - greater in CF with more surface area. Trouble is too few carbon customs are painted because buyers are chasing weight or don't want the hassle or lack the creativity.

I think the ability to differentiate yourself is far higher in carbon fiber.

skijoring 05-19-2011 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawker
I never meant to imply that these were not in-house frames. In fact, I don't think I did.

From what I've read elsewhere, I believe John has been working with carbon for a while now, getting to the point where his is apparently happy with the results. Also, while many of the pics show an extended seat tube, he informed me that you can have extended, short extended or no extension at all.

If I really wanted a new custom frame from John (or anyone else) ultimately I could find a way to come up with $2K. But $4K really would take me out of the market.

Someone else mentioned his paint jobs. Much has been said about this but it does seem that whether you love them or hate them...to some extent his paint designs may have overshadowed the quality of his building overall. The one I have is white with blue panels...and it must have killed him to paint it that way. :)

I intended my remarks for lovable serial-retrogrouch wheels outta boxes, Oldpotatoe. :beer:

I'd trust a carbon landshark...he makes killer frames, and it's already noted that he has been making carbon for a few years now.

eddief 05-19-2011 11:37 AM

i was thinking visually
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 1centaur
I think the ability to differentiate yourself is far higher in carbon fiber.

Tube differences are for sure at the heart, but paint, lugs, artistry is more at the eyeballs. That said, Dave Thompson does own a visually striking lugged carbon Serotta. But most carbons I have seen seem more plain jane. Maybe visual differences are at a beginning stage of evolution. Calfee shows some create stuff too, but those lugs have always struck me as something out of Spider Man.

FlashUNC 05-19-2011 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1centaur
If all carbon makers used unpainted round stock tubes this would be true, but...

Tube composition differentiation - greater in CF than steel.

Tube shape differentiation - greater in CF

Tube joining - arguable, but both can have lugs and TIG is close to wrapping.

Paint canvas - greater in CF with more surface area. Trouble is too few carbon customs are painted because buyers are chasing weight or don't want the hassle or lack the creativity.

I think the ability to differentiate yourself is far higher in carbon fiber.


I think a lugged carbon bike can be as beautiful as lugged steel frame.

Maybe I just love lugs.

But yeah, shame to hear he's not building in steel anymore.

Bob Ross 05-19-2011 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlashUNC
shame to hear he's not building in steel anymore.

Yeah, it doesn't surprise me to see framebuilders expanding their scope; what surprises me is seeing a respected framebuilder move his scope away from the medium with which he achieved the bulk of his reputation.

Hawker 05-19-2011 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Ross
Yeah, it doesn't surprise me to see framebuilders expanding their scope; what surprises me is seeing a respected framebuilder move his scope away from the medium with which he achieved the bulk of his reputation.

Well, Ray Charles switched to country music for awhile, it worked for him.

I miss Ray.

rugbysecondrow 05-19-2011 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Ross
Yeah, it doesn't surprise me to see framebuilders expanding their scope; what surprises me is seeing a respected framebuilder move his scope away from the medium with which he achieved the bulk of his reputation.


I think the distinction is how one views the evolution, if they see it as an evolution at all. It seems like he went from lugged to fillet brazing and now onto carbon. Marrying the art with the function, why not carbon? If you are a steel purist or are not a fan of carbon, this move might be disconcerting.

Many people shift gears in their careers, even if they are mightily good at something (engineering perhaps) they quit to become teachers. I know this analogy isn't the same, but why not allow the guy to change.

If I am being honest, I can't imagine being a frame builder. I think after 20 years, I would get bored with it and want to move on...but move on to what?

Interesting because if it were another career field (author or writer perhaps) we wouldn't flinch.

rugbysecondrow 05-19-2011 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawker
Well, Ray Charles switched to country music for awhile, it worked for him.

I miss Ray.

My man, you get it.

bart998 05-19-2011 02:22 PM

Carbon shark
 
I have a carbon shark that's about 4 years old. Guess it's one of his first. I bought it used from a local rider. It is made from a lugged Deda kit whereas his current frames are made from tubes that are hand wrapped at the joints. I love the way this bike rides but it is stiff, definitely a crit machine. Anyhow, it's four now, time to start saving for a newer Landshark.

William 05-19-2011 02:25 PM

We need to see some pictures of these elusive carbon sharks. Remember, if you don't post a picture...it doesn't exist. :no:




William

fiamme red 05-19-2011 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William
We need to see some pictures of these elusive carbon sharks.

I couldn't afford a carbon shark so I got a banana shark instead. :)

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/31/11...b222cb0f_o.jpg

William 05-19-2011 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fiamme red
I couldn't afford a carbon shark so I got a banana shark instead. :)

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/31/11...b222cb0f_o.jpg

OMGosh!! The elusive banana shark!!! They do exist!! http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/guns/banana-gun.gif

:)

William

alexstar 05-19-2011 02:34 PM

Sort of a bummer for me because I've always wanted a fillet-brazed Landshark. I was planning on buying one later this year or early next year. I guess I need to look on the secondary market. Anybody have a 56 to sell?

William 05-19-2011 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawker
In fact, he is "buying back" steel frames and will sell you a new carbon frame at approximalty half price.


Is this a "Cash for Clunkers"* style deal? Will he be destroying these?



William


*Believe me, I know there is no such thing as a "clunker Landshark! :)

Hawker 05-19-2011 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William
Is this a "Cash for Clunkers"* style deal? Will he be destroying these?



William


*Believe me, I know there is no such thing as a "clunker Landshark! :)


Well, that's exactly what he called it when I spoke with him. I couldn't bear to think of this frame being destroyed...and then he told me I could keep it and he would just credit me the amount of what the frame cost. I "think" that is what he said because my head was trying to keep up with all he was telling me, which was not really what I had called about.

However, the bottom line was that you could get a new carbon frame for approximately half of retail right now if you had an old one. Now if you don't have an old one I still got the "impression" that it might be a buyers market and he would offer you a pretty good price. Best bet is not to take my word, but to give him a call. Wish I had the bucks to take him up on it.

torquer 05-19-2011 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawker
Well, Ray Charles switched to country music for awhile, it worked for him.

I miss Ray.

Actually, I think he started with country music. Maybe somebody told him he was the wrong color for that genre, and he had to wait until he was a big enough R&B star to get back to it. (Charlie Parker was a big country fan, too.)
Hard to say if it was the best work of his career (he had so many bests), but those country albums are certainly the most jam-packed with works of genius.
And he sounds better doing Hank Williams' songs than Hank.

Charles M 05-19-2011 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Climb01742
given john's track record, i think he's earned a fair hearing for what he's building. band wagons don't seem like the sort of thing he jumps on.

:beer:

And that's not to say there are not still a slew and a half of places to go for very good steel.


But don't let that stop the pissing, moaning and negative projection...

It is carbon after all, and any and all negativity about the material and the people that dare touch it are a far better example of their poopyness than simply looking at the reputation and the quality of their work over the past several years...

torquer 05-19-2011 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AngryScientist
i agree, when i think "master craftsman" with respect to bicycles, i think torches and welding rod, not epoxy.

Nick Crumpton, who is universally considered a master by folks who know carbon, helped Slawta get started with that material. That to me sounds like an awesome combination.

There are a few other masters working in carbon (Parlee, and our hosts here on the forum), plenty of journeymen, and probably a few klutzes, biding their time until they break through with their reality TV shows. Similar distribution applies to guys doing brazing, making violins, whatever. We just spend most of our time discussing the masters.

One reason, I suspect, that carbon gets so much less respect, is that we are sceptical that those swoopy shapes from Trek/Speciallized/Scott/Pinarello suposedly developed with formula one computer programs really do anything. (We also know those curly lugs on the Hetchins don't do anything extra, but they do take time to create, and some folks' tastes run that direction.) But the masters we're talking about tend to keep things simple, and that makes their genius harder to communicate across the webisphere.

BillG 05-19-2011 03:41 PM

+1

I'm amazed some of you folks are second guessing one of the true masters when he's offering a deep discount and thinking he must be doing it just for the green. Sounds to me like he's way into it and his creativity has been brought to life in a new way.


Quote:

Originally Posted by PezTech
But don't let that stop the pissing, moaning and negative projection...

.



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